[sunbug]

Stephen:While we are engaged in the mundane…

Yes! As a young dancer (15/16) had to take the “train” (subway) for classes in NYC. I was coming from out of town (so would spend a few months/summers up in the city over the years.)

I remember the train tunnels underground, the heat, the sound…it felt quite mythic. The subway was never just a “subway.” Those trains (were dragons.) And I wrote a poem ode to them entitled “Dragons of the Underworld,” which was published in a small periodical.
The trains “roared,” you could feel the electricity in the air…the heat of the tunnels, the ogle of the yellow eye of an oncoming train…and the power of these metallic beasts roaring past.
My favorites were the “red dragons,” the express trains now sadly long since retired. The whole underground tunnels would vibrate with sound and wind of passing trains…you could feel it in the bones…it was exciting!

Then as I referenced in the ode after queuing up like billiard balls, we would hop onto a dragon and fly into the dark!

After a long day of dance (tired and hungry) the roars of passing dragons in the tunnels never failed to inspire and excite as everything else was drowned out except their presence. I needed the trains to be dragons…something vibrant and alive and magical living in the urban jungle.
I felt for the other commuters who were exhausted from work and life and only wanted to get from point A to B.
But the dragons were mostly my secret. Except I was lucky to have a Mom who supported my “imaginative stance.” Grin. She too would reference the “red dragons.” And it was worth a poem after all!

The reason perhaps for my mythic experience also related to having seen CBS’s “Beauty and the Beast,” which has all the mythic symbols of a “real underworld.” A blend of reality and fantasy and classic literature/poetry.
Central Park as well has its own wonderful mythic feeling…it’s incredible even years later walking out of the city and into the park how the sound of traffic begins to mute as one passes through this “invisible,” barrier and is surrounded by the green.

And to be fair there are many wonderful parks in NYC, Brooklyn etc.

If one knows where to look!!
 

 

 

[sunbug]

 

here is Bernd Heinrich talking about consciousness in Ravens.
And apparently he is not the only one. Glanced several articles just written last year from other researchers about this subject.

[sunbug]

Perhaps I should modify my stance on discovery/solving puzzles/ and mystery.
An aside: corvids are quite the puzzle solvers.
Back to that in a minute.
I really like the idea of solving a mystery, which opens to a new mystery.
Bernd Heinrich says something similar  in his studies as a naturalist…and ornithologist…that when he goes to solve something with one idea of what is happening then he is absolutely delighted when he is wrong and nature shows him something else that’s happening.
I highly recommend any of his books…including the ones on ravens.

Bernd does a lot of study in the field and while in his Maine cabin a reference to Thoreau or Frost wouldn’t be out of place even if like Parzeval some of Bernd’s methods such as climbing trees for raven eggs at least during one period of his life would be more unorthodox.
Bernd emphasizes the need to interact with nature in order to appreciate it rather than build a fence around it.
He often says after making a discovery about a mystery in nature that is the closest thing (to truth and beauty.)

Or even for a better quicker view introducing Bernd Heinrich is an independent film dvd made by Jan Cannon. “An Uncommon Curiosity at home and in Nature with Bernd Heinrich.”

As for Ravens…they are larger than crows. Some have compared their size to be about equal to a red tail hawk.

Raven’s also have a wedge tail, which crows do not have.

Crows are sleek and shiny black.

Ravens are more ruffled. Even though they are dark black with undertones of purple/blue. Crows have sharp pointed beaks.
Ravens have large beaks sometimes jokingly remembered in comparison to having a “Roman nose.” The Beak is rounded on the top.
Ravens over all tend to be much shaggier than their shiny cousins.
Both Ravens and crows have demonstrated excellent puzzle solving skills. Trained Ravens can learn words just like parrots.
I think Heinrich was one of the first to prove juvenile ravens worked together to find and protect food caches.
Ravens are fascinated by various trinkets it’s proven now and some have even suggested Corvids have “left gifts,” for humans who have fed them.
gifts such as pull tabs and pine cones.
Heinrich after working with Ravens believes there is a “consciousness,” there. I’ll have to find that link.
Their intelligence is considered to be remarkably high…along with simians, dolphins and parrots.
Some of the information is from Bernd Heinrich books and some from other articles and bird guides I’ve read but unfortunately don’t remember the sources now.
So that’s more Raven…trivia

[sunbug]

Sometimes I feel, the more we put the imaginal (creative) realm at bay…the more our journey/s are focused on finding answers and/or “knowing,” answers and they become less about “discovery.” (Discovery Meaning the journey “as is,” provides discoveries along the way, which can potentially lead to aha! Moments but in a more indirect way. That What you are looking for is somehow already there?)

Or Luna Lovegood in Harry Potter saying “sometimes the things we loose don’t always return to us in the way we expect.” Yes Ravenclaw I know.

That’s why I love how you reference the Mystery Craig!
I feel we need it but also understand that very human part of us that seeks answers as well as needs them.It’s natural…it’s human nature.

My concern in the balance between the “imaginal,” and the secular world “as is,” which we also need according to Robert Mirabal’s “Navajo Fires,”…

Is that the purpose of the Mystery is conceived to be “that which can be figured out and will be,” that the purpose of the mystery can be completely explained, measured and quantified…all mysteries are to be solved in other words…

“Solved” instead of “experienced?” Even if sometimes it’s through experience and wonder and The Unexpected…that some of the greatest discoveries have come to light.

Any thoughts? Craig? Stephen?

[sunbug]

If Ravens are the subject. I’m there!
So apologies if I covered this before (even in another Deininger myth blast!)

My experience also happened on a cliff…the edge of Grand Canyon. It was a time of transition as my Grandmother had passed recently and my Mom, Dad and I were going on a trip Out West.
Grandmother would have gone with us.
But in memory of her…we went. Mother had driven her parents out west a long time ago and she wanted Dad and me to see it too.
Many adventures happened including Mesa Verde (seeing those small hand prints in the cliff is humbling.)

But neither Dad nor I had seen the Grand Canyon. It was mind blowing.
everything just opened up…you could feel it…
I played a little Zuni flute I’d just bought at an Arizona trading post…just sitting back from the rim…gazing across all those painted layers.
When I returned back to the camper and sat with the sliding door open, this huge black Raven came sidling around to the open door.
This was no harbinger of doom…this was a character of Native myths curious, trickster and that something else…

(He) picked up a pebble to show off a ravens excellent tossing skills…except it did not go as planned as the pebble bopped him on the beak. (He)shook ruffled his feathers in Corvid frustration. So yes a bit of trickster/clown energy (and not scary clown)

But for me something clicked. For me it was not the archetypes associated with the raven but the Raven itself. Since the Native cultures have other life forms besides humans alone as archetypes and or energies. The raven was a representative of Raven in that imaginal realm.
I had other raven references earlier in my life but had never acknowledged them completely until this moment and once I did that raven story connected into other adventures, chance meetings and so forth.
Wherever I was or would go, I would (see) these birds. Appearing literally to engage my consciousness to “play,” in this imaginal realm. Still happens.

Sometimes I joke the crows point the way to go…(crows too fit with this)

As the crow flies y’know.

One of my favorite connections through my feathered friends is the Naturalist Bernd Heinrich who raised and studied Ravens himself. I was looking for raven calls for a music cd and Had read Bernd’s Mind of the Raven. I contacted him but his return email said all his cassettes of calls were in a shoebox somewhere. He recommended Cornell lab of ornithology, which I used. But even though I never had bird calls from Bernd Heinrich, I gained a lovely pen pal friendship instead. And I even traded him my CD for a signed copy of his book Geese of Beaver Bog.

One other thought: there was a lovely couple from Finland or Friesland? And the wife was really spooked by the Raven. So that was interesting because probably for her or within their culture a raven must have add an ominous perception. But I was not afraid at all.
This was a Native Raven!!…not Poe’s never more bird! Or the black winged war goddess of ancient Ireland!

Now I in my usual parzeval or entish manner have carried on as well!

I hope more participants come to participate with this!!

 

p.s. the other participant in the trip was Prissy (Caprice) our soon to be “well traveled,” Blue Point Siamese.
By Wyoming she stopped voicing her Siamese opinions!

[sunbug]

Avatar, yes! I have been waiting for the 2nd one to come to fruition. Hopefully not too long.

Imperial…um hmm.  My Mother was concerned about that “double edged sword of Space Exploration” too. She preferred emphasis on discovery and was worried about the rumors of the “sharper blade.”

Norland, you and Stephen hit a home run both with this subject and your conversation interchange in reflection upon it!!
I am reminded of one other potivistic myth, which possibly connects into that UFO  evolution Yet strays away from ET/Alien invasion: The rise and fall of civilizations on a mythic scale.  It seems to be in sync with the Vedic texts or other cyclical myths around the world or borrow from them.
Sometimes the ages are represented by metals (Iron/Silver/Bronze and Gold) but it feels much larger (than our metal ages.)
If the imaginative approach is preferred: then the “in-between” phenomena fits perfectly! And looking to What If and beyond…perhaps these “numinous,” appearances/experiences then were symbolic of some sort of renaissance or change about to occur?
(even a small change that made ripples.)
One could  wonder IF the propensity of these “in-between” happenings now are also a “calling,” of the psyche from the “in between?” I guess that’s up to each experiencer.

Thank you so much for this fascinating topic, Norland!!

Will look forward to your next Myth Blast!

 

[sunbug]

Ok will try to wrap this up.
So those 50 years since 1969 have passed and the human/story/myth/journey of space travel has kind of been on a 50 year hiatus. But thank God not the wonderful Observational part of Astronomy that my Mother loved so much!!
Could this possibly lead to a kind of partial Mythic drought? Even though there is hope and talk of humans returning to space journeys while measuring the risk, possibilities and funding  needed…could that other drought have given the UFO/ET myth/phenomena a greater hold on our imagination?
If WE are not at the CENTER of SPACE JOURNEY then does something inside of US “live” vicariously through the Mythology of the UFO?
Or even Hope for it? If one has a more concrete perception?
Does the “In Between,” become vital for not only our imagination but our Spirit as well?
Is it possible that if Humans again become the Center of the Space Journey that there will be a balanced return to the Experience and Transcendence?

If the Artemis mission is a go…it might draw us back to the human universal journey.

And I saw images on a Time magazine which suggest the future is back on the horizon. Drawings of a “triangular plane,” so yes one of those “mythological ufo shapes?”

drawings of flying cars were also depicted  or some equivalent or some type of drone vehicles.

The whole cover was tinted in Gold, which gave it almost an Egyptian kind of symbology…or perhaps a reference to a technological renaissance. I just glanced at it, but perhaps inside it referenced space as well. Certainly caught my eye!

In the past it was the Journey and finding the technology to make it work

And now everything is the technology first (with all its own mixed perceptions)

Then maybe the possibility of a journey.
The Horizon seems to be returning one way or another!

Though I hope as always that we keep our heart aligned with our own home planet and do not take her for granted (ever) when the Horizon calls us once more!

At risk of contradicting myself have to say this: for me even if we do not have an immediate human mission the beauties of Observational Astronomy that my Mother shared with me and others will Never Be Forgotten! I can feel the vastness, the mystery, the stories which have brought us this far…the inspiration, imagination and in-between. The transcendent is already there for me! It just Is…look at a clear night sky…or a luminous close up of a messier object and “something” numinous unfolds!

[sunbug]

Norland and Stephen,

I have sometimes wondered if part of what has given the UFO/Public/Myth Dream such elevation *chuckle* is the perception of an indeterminate PAUSE in “manned” (woman/human) space flights/missions beyond coming and going to Space Stations?

When the space shuttles were retired I felt the same look in Mother’s eyes…a sad wistfulness.
To be sure we have the X-rockets from the Private Sector and have cheered the landings of various rovers.

But I still remember crying over Challenger as a young kid. Remember how we would stop and watch the build up to other launches (which always felt like a wonderful mythic event but Real! And scary!) This much I can say aside to Shaahayda: one of the earliest memories I have is a photo of a Saturn Rocket in stark black and white…towering into the sky. As a kid it scared me…but not like monsters under the bed…it wasn’t evil…but what it was was powerful. And it demanded respect. I wouldn’t “look directly at it,” kids y’know ha ha. As a very young child I didn’t understand why it scared me. But now in reflection perhaps something deep in my psyche was responding to that image. Hm.

But I’m off on a tangent sorry…

I do understand funding was and always has been an issue with the space programs as we know them…

And we All are thankful for Hubble blazing brightly in our minds or the beauty we glimpse through our own telescopes or even with our naked eyes.
With or without wonders of ETs and UFOS, I know the starry heavens were glorious to my Mom (and Dad too…and Grandmother who all saw those sights of nebulae and galaxies and the planetary bodies)

I think about how far we came…until humans were walking on the moon!!
It remains mind blowing to so many of all ages (even though iPhones have demanded the next generations undivided attention)

From my own perspective growing up back in the 80s and 90s when one talked to their friends about space we all knew by The Millennium not only would there be flying cars…but we would take flight shuttle taxis up to Space Stations where our space ships were docked…and we would be on Mars! We just knew!

Because 50 years before Man walked on the Moon… “horseless carriages,” were the new fangled transportation of 1919!

What would another 50 years bring?!!

Ok so yes some of us grew up seeing old Star Trek reruns and Watching The Next Generation. The imagination was ready!

But instead The Shuttles were retired with no replacements except X-rocket/planes and we got the mini-pocket computers known as smart phones. The computers at least shrank from refrigerator size.
But it is kind of cool to see the iPad touch screens inside of rocket ships.
“Scotty” would approve Grin.
Part of what made the Moon Missions so wonderous and the shuttles was not only the Mythic feeling…but it was Us! We were all a part of this as the Human race! We were with those men and women looking into the Horizon calling us on and calling us to look back to our beautiful home planet earth and know the value of Her!
We are participating in the new discoveries made now perhaps a bit more long distance but computers along with photography are bringing us images in new ways…that’s still inspiring Rovers included! I thought the latest Mars rover looked just like a Drone! So that’s new!
And there is something to be said for not obsessing on Space Travel at the expense of Spaceship Earth. For sure!!
When we had manned missions it’s interesting to note, the Story is About Us and Our Planet…the journey has nothing to do with Aliens/ETs it is Us!
We are the heroes and heroines of those journeys! Both in bravery and tragedy.
This was the next Myth that Campbell envisioned bringing us back to the outer reaches of inner space!
Yet there is a sense of a PAUSE on those kind of journeys or the build-up to them. There are so many channels now and streaming services that unless one is focused, the lift off of an X rocket  or the Mars Rover is relegated to an “internet viewing,” or if one is diligent a video on NASA or Space.com etc.

Or signs in first to Stream the Live Feed.

There is no longer that feeling of a “Live Event!” “A Happening!” “A Real Human Endeavor!”
These events used to be covered that way on our TVs but unless my perception is off…not as much.
Or perhaps it’s just been so long since those manned missions. Except astronauts have been doing some interesting endeavors concerning the Space Station.

Maybe the Artemis Mission with a Woman journeying to the Moon will inspire us once more!

Have other thoughts on this in continuation but will return to those later…concerning UFO myth…

[sunbug]

Robert Juliano,

I had a thought in reference to your references of Dr. Veronica Goodchild, Carl Jung and The Red Book.

You write: In Psychoid, Psychophysical, P-subtle! Alchemy and a New Worldview by Dr Veronica Goodchild, she describes a psychic realm that lies in between psyche and matter accessible by the imagination, the vehicle used by Jung in his experiments with the unconscious resulting in Red Book and which was used by the alchemists in their opus.

I have noticed that even some of the “ufology clubs,” are also leaning more towards the subtle and in-between in regards to descriptions of “encounters.”
What Jung references as the “realm of subtle bodies,” has gained a new evolution in the mythology of ufology.
The term “thrown around,” is “inter-dimensionals.” Well of course I’m sure it probably stirred up debates even within “ufology clubs.” But this “take,” is more open to seeing the phenomena whether UFO or ET as an “in between realm.”
The only place where this perception becomes more concrete probably is the perception of “Visitors,” or “Visitation.”
So even though something could be perceived as in-between and even transparent…there is still a definition of What the experience Is.

And I wonder if you had heard of “Noetic Science?” It seems to go right along with what you write about “individuation,” creating the “subtle body,” according to Jung.

You write: It’s important to note that Jung himself saw the process of individuation as creating the subtle body, one made of matter and spirit and which overcomes the split between body and psyche. Dr. Goodchild writes “individuation is the creation of this subtle body … here in this life.” This subtle body was “thought to survive physical death, and it would be the body—a kind of psychic body that nevertheless had ‘substance’ and contained your essence, or quintessence … that you would take with you when you sloughed off your earthly form.”

Noetic Science has claimed to measure a weight difference after someone dies, which is unrelated to the the natural occurrences which accompany a person passing. And this difference is related to the “weight of the soul,” or what Jung would call the “subtle body.”
But I suppose measuring insubstantial things would still be considered “concretization,” by Joe Campbell? Heh heh.

Thanks for bringing another angle to this subject!! Robert!

 

[sunbug]

Excellent to see more participants in this discussion including other Myth Blast writers!

Dennis Slattery, when you mention “hope,” and “fervor,” I have wondered if  there are two different camps of “UFO,” “experiencers” or “wonderers?”

You write: Hope and fervor are the two watchwords that I wanted to highlight here. Now, how much or little this story is a convincing or possible analogy to the UFO sightings and the belief in them is open to comment. But I find that fervor and a conviction of a belief based on nothing more than DESIRE is where swaths of our current cultural psyche have taken hold and gripped hard.

I perceive there is this One Camp of “ufology,” Deep-in… “Roswell” (just using that as an umbrella heading)

This “Roswell Club”  has very strong fervor, belief and very concrete perceptions. And other ufo clubs fall under that ALSO with very strong belief, fervor and perception!!

Then there is this Other non-formatted experience shared by regular people? (teachers, astronomers, cab drivers to military pilots?) And these people don’t necessarily belong to the “Roswell Club of belief.”

Some of these people might wonder when they have an experience of a “phenomena,” but it also might be an experience without a definite definition. And yes it might be easy to think of ETs/UFOs subconsciously since that has such a strong presence in the modern mythic consciousness as you point out. That our thoughts automatically go there as Shaahayda pointed out with her experience at first.
But not everyone after such experiences signs up for Roswell membership. What my Mother saw and I saw Made us go “hmm, isn’t THAT interesting?”
So I think Norland is right about dealing from a place of experience that is not clouded by belief or the fights over “what is,” and “what is not,”     THEN at least there is opening to conversation on the subject.
And you are definitely right Dennis about the “Roswell Club…and others,” they are deep-in and have already decided what is being seen or experienced. (Grin)

I did want to ask one question in regards to “The Mythology of Belief?”
Could “Trust,” be another side of that?
Or occasionally blended into that?

Belief=Trust?

Trust=Belief?

[sunbug]

Shaahayda,

What an experience you had! Close-up!

Exciting, eerie and perhaps a little frightening. But you were left with wonder.
The feeling I gather from your description is the light had a non-solid quality, which definitely would give it that numinous aspect that Norland is suggesting. Maybe your experience was more like a feeling/vision of energy…glowing in light. Wow!
Did you feel any heat? Or hairs rising on neck? Fascinating!!

Sometimes my imagination has toyed with the flickering thought that some of those “tech shamans,” you describe, may be graphic artists and mathematicians and every once in a while they have the inclination to make those more complex doodles in some crop to while the time. Just an amusing fancy.
I think the reason that sometimes humans gravitate towards the more “solid” side of “imagination/conjecture,” might be related to boundaries. Whenever there is a boundary set no matter how valid/credible, it seems like there is some kind of psyche urge to cross it…and to see if there is anything beyond. (Alas part of the human mythic nature?)

If the boundary represents what cannot be…maybe it feels like a call “to put away childish things.” But that wonder is still searching or waiting for an experience for something. And sometimes a conjecture work like Daniken’s or others grabs attention and becomes a something. Perhaps in “defiance” of that Other Boundary Set.
YET what you suggest Norland is an in-between, where both the insubstantiality of a phenomena, which also has a physical effect beckons the Wonder back to more open spaces.
After all, when you mention seeing these type of phenomena, there is no foregone conclusion the phenomena must be Extraterrestrial even if that idea fancies with our imagination.
I sense that you are approaching the phenomena without a direct definition, which would be the mythic and transcendent way: to experience them and appreciate them “as is.”
And this open approach does not judge those who have experienced these happenings, or seeings, nor does it discount these experiences, because it is looking at experience and definition in a more mythic manner.
Speaking of this phenomenology, it occurs that the beings of Every “Dream Time,” from Down Under to the British Isles were always “Beings of In-between.”

When the more direct physical  “alien” approach was applied from Roswell onward…then the story was re-invented…interpreted…maybe they were aliens instead.

You have come at the story from a right angle…looking from a different perspective that is not fully expected.
The appearance and disappearance of the UFOs does indeed resemble the rise of a “sun,” and descent or setting with these phenomena. The lights for certain! (Which from Shaahayda’s story feels like less of a “ship aspect,” and more of a phenomenal aspect.
But even with the more solid viewings

They come in various shapes…and shapes are very interconnected with myths and the psyche but I’m talking to the head choirs on this!

And those images/phenomena  have evolved up from the saucer…to coming to place or shape of transparent light…going from solid to transcendent? Coming and going in the field of space time or eternally outside of it? Resting in the underworld before rising to reclaim our imagination on another night, leaving an image imprinted in our minds like Walter De la Mare’s “silence surging softly backwards when the plunging hooves were gone.” (“The Traveler.”)

De la Mare also leaves his poem in the in-between. There is no definition or form for “They,” in the house. Only the form of shadows…which are both a wavering imagination of “something,”but also remain insubstantial. Waiting for the next Traveler to discover, while they rest in their underworld of uncertainty.
And perhaps it’s the same with the UFOs…waiting to be discovered, manifesting before us, tugging at our wonder and uncertainty…drawing us back once more to the Mythic Mind.

 

[sunbug]

Yes there could be several subheadings of this Myth/Dream/Happening:

SETI (and I’m betting Campbell knew and the quote you provide Stephen might be in response to that as well as the phenomena on a whole)

But if wanting to bring together concrete and transcendent and past and present. And jumping into the Game and Story of The Public Myth?

Dare I reference: Erik Von Daniken?

Or even more so Zecharia Sitchin?
There could be a whole piece on both of them.
ZS took the ancient myths and ran with a whole new interpretation (which yes played into the whole UFO theme)

I do not have to ask Joe Campbell’s opinion *wry grin*

But such imaginings created a myth life of their own which has highly influenced part of this UFO/ET Dream/Wonder/WhatIf?

[sunbug]

Norland, Stephen is absolutely correct: “you definitely knocked it out of the ballpark!” And I agree…not just the essay but all the additions you made after! Excellent!!
Stephen that’s awesome you dug up a direct Joe Campbell reference to UFOs. His take not surprising! Exactly what I would guess! And that is what Campbell liked about the Moon Mission…pointing back to the earth and back within…though it took pointing to the beyond too…and the beyond has always lingered in the imagination.
I would really like to have seen Campbell’s response to the growing “Public Dream/Myth,” of UFOs today.

There may be an evolution of a few new nuances within this Modern Tale!

So my Mom had a small observatory non-profit…but she also had a photo of Capt. Kirk…so keeps a bit of symbol of wonder along side the study of astronomy.

She loved not just sharing her knowledge with others but seeing the wonder awake in them, when they had their own experience of seeing the stars and nebulas revealed in fine detail through the telescope. Human connection.

Your last entry Norland is so good…really love it…that I’m at risk of copy pasting the entire quote.

The last paragraph really resonates and I agree! There is so much push for trading metaphor for concrete that perhaps bringing that back together is a reminder of transcending pairs of opposites! Now I want to look up that writer! That mythologist! (A plus Stephen to these boards…looking/reading/watching recommendations has been really lovely!)

So yes concrete elements used to translate as some odd farmer seeing something but overtime the “happenings” are unusual things moving  witnessed by military pilots…not that there weren’t those connections before but calling the Myth Public really expresses that it’s not limited to one group but shared in a much larger way!! And that’s the fascination!

Stephen and Norland: this Subject could have several subheadings!
Or innings! Yes it is baseball time of the year! Grin. Speaking about knocking this out of the park…oh my!

A quick question to you both?
Have either of you heard of the “Hopi Prophecies?” I’m not sure this was around or known during Campbell’s study. And I may not be alluding to this correctly, but the jist is that a group of Hopi Elders was interviewed and maybe they were asked about UFOs but were not surprised at all…and gave some explanation that fit with the modern myth. What peaked my interest is that people with strong native heritage had interest and did not dismiss it as merely outsider interpretation. There were papers I think…there is a book that refs but it’s the papers what were/are interesting to Native people and others.

The Elders were real or at least that’s what I gleaned at the time.

I think what that numinous in-between place does where the opposites meet… is it becomes a deeply magical place…and/or experience.

 

 

[sunbug]

Thank you for your responses Norland!
First my apologies…I remembered things both you and Stephen wrote, which I liked…but scanning back for them, unfortunately made an oops on who contributed what.
And you did say Campbell would have welcomed the challenge of the ambiguity. I can see that now. I was perhaps thinking how all the public reaction for proof and evidence might turn him away… but you put it more succinctly, that if a contemporary within Campbell’s field or if more besides Jung had written about the subject…he would have been more willing to dig into it.

You write: I don’t think that UFOs are, phenomenologically speaking, outside the realm of religion and science. In a way, they represent the possibility of an absolute synthesis of the two.

That makes sense. Perhaps I was taking too literal an approach in imagining Campbell searching for how a UFO symbol could relate to the symbols of old and balking from any views of physical proof. Should give Joseph Campbell more credit for being open to such an adventure of exploration. Even if he might have preferred other peers of renown and expertise to tackle it before daring a “Parzival” himself. Sorry Joe!

And I think you are right, because the UFO subject has such potential as a modern myth. You mentioned how the UFOs both have the dark and light side…and a new sort of “Savior symbol” as well. A synthesis of science and religion into something fantastical, numinous as well as potentially terrifying.
After all going into Space…I seem to recall Campbell’s fascination with that…and I had the impression in Power of Myth…that Campbell was looking towards space as what would birth the New Myths.
So to give him credit…perhaps I should say he would not be surprised by this Public Dream of the UFO!

the quote: “news affirming the existence of UFOs seems welcome, but skepticism seems undesirable” which says belief in UFOs “suits the general opinion” whereas disbelief is to be discouraged.

I have a little different perception of THIS. Even with the whole Roswell episode…the reaction to UFOs seemed to be divided with those who did talk about existence often getting the labels “of kooks” and “little green men ha ha”

even though the symbol by then was really “Gray” beings.

There was an “underground” following of all UFO details

BUT that over the next decades mentions of UFOs even among regular people (not just Roswell UFO enthusiasts) became quite common.

There were those who thought UFOs would make traditional religions uncomfortable, maybe the strict ones…but I have found that even those who consider themselves to have a strong Christian faith…see no reason God could not have created beings on other planets as well. So that’s sort of interesting.

I know that you and Jung were emphasizing a potential “break in the human psyche” in regards to the birth of the UFO phenomena…

But I also wonder if there is a certain kind of allure and draw to this as well?

To be fair that sense of “dissociation,” that Jung mentions might also reflect that NEED.

The DRAW I’m thinking about is “WHAT IF?” Looking at UFOs from this perspective of PLAY. The classic suspension of disbelief and the engagement of WONDER and IMAGINATION. Maybe the soul or psyche has felt a drought…and looking up to the Stars…births this WHAT IF? Game. Because it’s in the form of questions could it not still retain that numinous quality? Wondering what a UFO could be? How it flies? Wondering if there are ETs or what they might look like? Friendly or grumpy? Tall or Short?
Wonder is more open ended than belief…I know it’s a contradiction to letting definitions slide before the mystery. But this shows to me you are exactly right…and it is a way of longing for that wonder and imagination and rapture of mystery, which all the myths have talked about. And it reflects that “play,” that is often the key to the threshold of experience.
Of course if one has heard ufo culture references then alas the game becomes a bit more defined: Are “Grays real?”
If so? Are they nice or mean or indifferent? What kind of ships do they fly?etc. (Getting a little too concrete for Joe Campbell at that point heh heh)

But I can see what you mean about UFOs having that almost ephemeral quality…whether an object of light (interestingly some have suggested some UFOs are like holograms which gets back to that insubstantial vision appearing and disappearing)

Or whether an object that moves in an odd manner.
You made good points too about our own tech (whole other branch of the subject)

I have no idea what we were seeing that night when those 8 lights didn’t move for 30 mins. We were watching them from a deck and my Mother looked at them through the telescope too. All I know is it was fascinating!!

The other one Mother saw…maybe before I was born…she described as a big orange ball of light, which slowly went behind a mountain (laterally)

She was driving home at the time.
Who knows but it definitely leaves the Wonder dancing in the in-between!!

 

 

 

[sunbug]

One other thought on transcendence, also related to this UFO subject…

Norland mentions how the quality of transcendence escapes the prison of language.

That is the feeling, I always had from reading Joe Campbell, the understanding of coming to that threshold of experience, where there are no words…where it is the experience itself which “speaks to the soul.” And the mystery…the place where all drops away.
Sometimes I wanted to challenge Campbell concerning this…not Transcendence but the “need to define.”

The other part of his works were discussing the traps and fallacies of concretization missing the transformative power of the metaphor…concretization often based in stricter religious tenets, which probably reflect the idea of the “Thou Shalt Dragon”  or “Thou aren’t worthy dragon” and Thou must believe or go to Hell.
So an escape from that type of concretization is understandable!
Yet if one is standing at the threshold or gate or experiencing a transcendent moment beyond words…or definition…

Is it not also a kind of “concretism,” to define “what cannot be,” when facing Mystery?

If definitions drop away, then how can one define Mystery?
Perhaps that’s why Jung remains mysteriously ambiguous in regards to UFOs. Maybe he enjoys hovering in that in-between place.
So I always wondered with the emphasis on transparency to transcendence….

how can one be so certain of What Is Not? If one falls into the place of experience beyond definitions?

I think you have said Stephen,  that Campbell protested too much in regards to metaphysics?  But I wonder if  for his chosen path he needed grounding?  My guess is he made that crossroad a long time ago.

It is interesting  too calling something unidentified leaves it open…it is not a direct definition…and even the change from object to phenomena is curious too…ball lightning is a phenomena…so UFO can be simultaneously a perceived object or a perceived event.

Also interesting Norland has just addressed this in his latest entry in the discussion.

My Mother (an Astronomer) saw some unusual “phenomena” both naked eye and through telescope but could only describe what she observed. She never pinned it down beyond referencing her viewings as unidentified. A big round light going behind a mountain (not the sun)…and…
I remember seeing a line of lights that stayed in one place for about 30 mins before moving in night sky. That one peaked my Mother’s interest.

But in reference to  your mention of different technology Norland…more earth related, what of Nikola Tesla?

It seems his name will occasionally crop up in relation to both tech and UFO phenomena.

(the irony is if Campbell so chose today…there are enough camps of perspectives to create whole new seeds of mythology/imagination in relation to UFOs! Even if counted as 20th Century/21 Century Folk Belief)

[Author]

Posts