Shaahayda Rizvi
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Hi Stephen,
The above post is a bit chopped off. It seems my new modified version did not come through. Do you mind deleting this, whenever you get a free minute, no rush.
Addendum: Stephen, I apologize for this extra uncalled for post, asking for your intervention. Unfortunately, I am unable to delete it, hence I asked you for help. There used to be a delete button but no more. I tried to leave my two postings blank but the system would not allow. I’ll leave you a private message now.
Shaahayda
Hello Stephen,
Thought provoking indeed.
“Could this have been an effort on behalf of an emerging industrial city to reconcile its unconscious with the emergence of the machine, and thus the seeds of a new modern mythology. Any thoughts on this? Any insights on its evolution or what may be considered equivalent today?”
Starting with Joe Campbell’s definition of art , one of which comes from Coomarswamy. Joe writes, “Coomaraswamy has a definition of art—“art is the making of things well”—that underlies art no matter what its function or category. If you’re not interested in making things well, then you’re not, even in the most elementary sense, an artist. I think Japanese machinery sells so well because the Japanese have that artistic idea. They strive for perfection and precision in everything.” (Campbell, Joseph. A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell Book 2)
Art Deco stood for modern sophisticated design, that symbolized wealth. Similarly, the idea with both buildings was to improve the architectural style in NYC, and display anti-traditional methods. The architects of both buildings wanted to make things well, and so they strived to incorporate the new art deco style that had its origins in France.
Shaahayda
Hello James and all,
Thank you for your lovely post that explores the idea of a “personal myth” and one’s own story. You ask, ” what does this type of framework have to do with: Art, Literature, Music, or any of the other forms of expression and one’s idea of who they are and their moment in time?” These are big questions, and for me very difficult to answer, because I find I am constantly uncovering another lost part of me, and wondering how did I land here? Thank you for the youtube video of Dead Poet’s Society — Robin Williams quotes Walt Whitman:
“Oh me! Oh life! of the questions of these recurring,
Of the endless trains of the faithless, of cities fill’d with the foolish,
Of myself forever reproaching myself, (for who more foolish than I, and who more faithless?)
Of eyes that vainly crave the light, of the objects mean, of the struggle ever renew’d,
Of the poor results of all, of the plodding and sordid crowds I see around me,
Of the empty and useless years of the rest, with the rest me intertwined,
The question, O me! so sad, recurring—What good amid these, O me, O life?”
So this is where I am right now in life, James, “Of myself forever reproaching myself, for who more foolish than I, and who more faithless? and “Of the poor results of all, of the plodding and sordid crowds I see around me, Of the empty and useless years of the rest, with the rest me intertwined”
But to answer your question, ‘what will your verse be?’ I do have a verse, albeit borrowed from a poet, and it is, “I would love to live like a river flows, carried by the surprise of its own unfolding.” (John O’Donohue). The powerful play goes on and I am simply flowing.
These days, Dr. Peter Fenwick’s research on dying and the art of dying + other articles and posts, have occupied a good part of my reading. Story telling does hold a very important place in his research as he explores the experiences of the dying or those who nearly died.
Citing Peter Fenwick, who among other things, is a Neuropsychiatrist at the Maudsley Hospital and at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford, England, and is widely regarded as an authority on the subject of Near Death Experiences and the mind brain problem. Dr. Peter Fenwick writes that the dying have a hundred stories to tell. It’s these stories that they share with the health care workers in nursing homes and in hospice centers that bring meaning to their life’s journey.
Dr. Fenwick writes, “It is the nursing and hospice care-workers and relatives who are, and who, we found as this research progressed, had a wealth of stories to tell. …….We were told many stories by the families of the dying of visits made by the dying at the time of death to someone emotionally close to them, and the message that they always gave, that they were ‘OK’ (Fenwick & Fenwick 2008; Fenwick & Brayne. 2010). Fenwick, Peter. Shining Light on Transcendence: The unconventional journey of a Neuroscientist . White Crow Books. Kindle Edition.
He adds that our instinctive side has dominated the reflective side. And as the dying reflect on their lives, they relive those moments through stories. He notes that “these two sides (the instinctive and the reflective) are characterized by mythological stories throughout the ages, ‘with battles between good and evil, the Jekyll and Hyde aspects of our personality.” That our battles intensify as we approach our sunset years. This weaves into what Alain Forget (another scholar that Fenwick quotes in his book) writes, “Remember how the Devil tempted Christ during the forty days in the desert and how Mara and his army of demons appeared in front of the Buddha just before his awakening. It is always the same mechanism, always the same story.” He adds that to awaken is to compel an illusion to see that it is an illusion”. And, Dr. Bucher in his latest mythblast wrote, that “an impactful story can cause oppressors to turn from their harmful ways. It can also unite people around a tyrant. It can end a season of torment and cause new life to bloom forth from stony ground”
Today, in the forest, I did find new life – blooming
What greatly resonates with me is Dr. Bucher’s earlier post on courage, and strength in writing a new story. James that’s what I am waiting for, a new story, collectively experienced.
Quoting Dr. Bucher, from his earlier post, not the latest Mythblast, “We find story at the core of every art form, both known and unknown to us. Storytelling empowers us to charge into the cyclical patterns of our own life, believing that a better chapter may be waiting on the other side of the darkness. Where a previous year might have brought struggle, heartbreak, or even tragedy, an inherent drive within us draws our eyes toward the horizon and causes us to consider the possibilities that may lie beyond the horizon if we can stir up the courage to craft new wings and fly towards it. Perhaps there is new release waiting, as Campbell and Joyce believed. Perhaps there are unseen allies, mentors, and strategic partners just around the bend in our journey, if we only turn our mind to unknown arts and rise to believe what might be possible in the new beginning we just collectively experienced. Many of us long for a new story— a better story—in this new year. May we rise together, finding fresh narratives, enchanting opportunities, and the tools to craft new wings.”
Presently, it’s holding on to my belief, “that a better chapter may be waiting on the other side of the darkness. ” Hence the verse, “I would love to live like a river flows, carried by the surprise of its own unfolding.”
Shaahayda
Dear Dr. Slattery,
Not to take too much of your time, but I wanted to follow your response with of course, Joe Campbell on imagined god(s).
“And that’s what Jung is saying in his Answer to Job : it is actually the work of man that is projected in the image of an imagined being called God. And so, historically, the God image is really a mirror image of the condition of man at a given time.” Campbell, Joseph. A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell Book 2) .
The current state of man is the Wall Street Economy. Even after the crisis of 2008, the riches of the billionaire class are unimaginably high. The god of wealth is running the show. Presently, the future of our planet is controlled by a few multi-nationals. These are powerful entities in terms of influence. Therefore, if these entities imagined and implemented a more ethical eco-conscious role for the planet, we’d save our planet and save the image of our future god. And to the mystics and shamans, and the sufis of the world, would it be fair to say that it’s awesome to dance and trance, but bring back those imagined images to heal the planet, to clean and detox the earth, to not go to the forest and forget your precious planet.
Thank You
Shaahayda
Dear Dr. Slattery,
“A mythological image is one that evokes and directs psychological energy. It is an energy-evoking and energy-directing sign. A mythology is a system of affect or emotional images; these representations themselves produce this emotion or affect.”
Your essay and Stephen’s nuggets surely evoked psychological energy. A friend once asked, “ When is it that you had a truly good conversation, or in whose company do you have a truly good conversation?” I did not have to think hard and long, because only a week ago, I had had a wonderful conversation with Marianne, and a few days later a number of rich and resourceful text messages from James and Stephen. Moreover all the MYTHBLAST essays in some form or another are the rich soil through which our conversation grows. Jcf.org is that place where I have engaged in good conversations, and in a good conversation, you are not judged, you are engaged. So, thank you Dr. Slattery for enriching our lives, and allowing us to express and engage with you here.
When I sat down to write, I only wanted to ask you to elaborate the importance of imagination in living our lives. If we had chosen a certain path in life, using our imagination, would not our lives be entirely different? Perhaps, a different or better career, a fine soul-mate, great friends, a rich love life? But yes, our environment, family and friends, teachers and peers, did step in to alter what we had internally imagined. Our deepest inmost thoughts were never realized, just imagined. So many inhibitions and societal constraints derailed that imagination train.
Right now, I have a simple question based on what I have read and heard of imagination. Possibilities are like imaginations, and let’s say, out of 5 possibilities, I achieve 1, that one becomes a fact, then what happens to the other 4? Do these possibilities or our fond imaginations somehow lurk around, and keep us hopping and hoping until one other possibility becomes a fact too? Or do they all remain unrealized as happens often in unrequited love?
Additionally I thought of your words, especially, “Truly a marvelous quality in being human: to be able to imagine worlds that exist, but on a different plane of reality than our quotidian lives inhabit.” Then “worlds existing on a different plane” led me to think of Mystics and Shamans, and is it not the mystic’s imagination that helps him see god in all things? Imagination is the ground on which people have spiritual experiences. Julian of Norwich comes to mind, who because of her spiritual experience and mystic trance experienced god’s love. In “Revelations of Divine Love in Sixteen Showings”, we find Julian’s most famous quotation: “Would you learn to see clearly your Lord’s meaning in this thing? Learn it well: Love was his meaning. Who showed it to you? Love. Why did he show it to you? For love. Thus, I was taught that Love was our Lord’s meaning.” God is LOVE, Period, according to Julian.
Similarly, a Sufi mystic Idries Shah (1924-1996) refers to Sufism as ‘THE PATH OF THE SUFI”, not a specific religion or some form of spiritual practice related to Islam. He writes that a “Sufi is known as a seeker, the drunken, the lover, the dervish, the fqkir( the poor homeless ) Kalandar (a person who has excelled in seeing things and imagining things)” Are these all the Sufi’s imagined states?
It’s said that one of the things that has been neglected in our present day world, is the imagination of God, not the good will or mercy of God. Would love to hear your thoughts on all the above, or just one, if you have time.
Thank you very much.
Shaahayda
Marianne and James,
Marianne. Thank you for your generous and wise words on this dream thread. Passages from CW of Jung were especially big eye-openers. I read all that you wrote, and went over some online discussion of the same that is “Difference between individuation and individuality, the collective aspect and the non-conformity to the collective. “
Marianne, You wrote “what is in the present is also always unfolding, so in a sense the present is already what is present in the future, in its unfoldment..” Now this brings me to a question, don’t dreams just mix up our sense of time. We can dream about our childhood events, home or school, years and years ago, and then in quick new scene we are sitting in front of a TV that happens to be just where we are in present time. So, as past events link us to out present, our present leads us into our future. A dream is a wonderful whole package – A psychological and historical self, displayed via scenes of symbols and stories.
James, this passage from Joseph that you quoted, brought in a whole new dimension to the dream self – a self that is deep and mysterious and yet a product of one’s own psychological and historical state, Quoting from your post, “Joseph said something which to me is truly profound; “we are standing on a whale fishing for minnows”; which symbolizes this deep fathomless ocean we are riding on all the time concerning the inner depths of our being. This powerful deep inner mystery that is informing us all the time in this language we are constantly struggling to understand. … “
Joseph also states; or at least in the way I understand it; that these forces must be interpreted or assimilated and they often come to us in the form of our dream life.” Thank you James for this passage.
This morning I awoke to the cawing of my favorite crows near my bedroom window. They had sensed that my desire to hike the mountain has a lot to do with sighting them, and cawing back to them. Here is a picture:
Maybe they come to this tree around the first three days of spring, but it’s only the last two years that I have started noticing them.
James, regarding “in the early stages of life as Joseph mentions; the individual is concerned with achievement of life…… But in the later stages of life the mental and emotional focus of the individual begins to shift towards the realization of the later stages which include acceptance and decline and loss of power of that life you have achieve” Unfortunately, I paid very little attention to my dreams in the early stages of my life, but now in my later stages, I am into them, writing them, looking at them, asking for guidance on a physical level. It’s in my later years that I am fascinated with crows, and they come to me in my dreams and guide me to my childhood homes and courtyards that I hold so dear. Truly a fascinating adventure.
Talking about fascinating adventure, I love this quote, “In “Pathways to Bliss” on page 80; Joseph says this:
“Jung says life is like the day of a solar journey. The first part of it is up; moving from birth to the society. And the second part of it is down, moving from participation in the world and the society to death. And whereas the threat of the first half of life was life, the threat of the second half is death., and all the symbols are changing meaning.
Through the remaining part of life, Jung says, the great problem is integrating the inferior with the superior functions. That’s the great task of your later years.”
I am sad that I paid no attention to my dreams when I was young, or as Jung puts it the first part of one’s life. If the first part of life is up and around our mid thirties, it would be fair to ask, did you Marianne and James ? I know Stephen has been devoted to his dream world much before his mid thirties. Wondering if this would have somehow shaped a different trajectory? Wondering if this would have guided us in recognizing our soul mates, wondering if we could have made the right choices then? Just some thoughts. Marianne, do you encourage your daughter or your grand daughter in recalling their dreams? I do encourage my son, now and then, but it does not make much of a dent.
Much to follow later.
Shaahayda
Thank you Stephen and James. Yes, charged emotions and feeling in dreams as a separate topic will make for a rich subject.
Quoting Stephen, who quotes Jung,
You are on to something about Jung’s stress on the emotional charge of a dream image. In Man and His Symbols, a work unfinished at the time of his death. Jung describes how
… archetypes appear in practical experience: They are, at the same time, both images and emotions. One can speak of an archetype only when these two aspects are simultaneous. When there is merely the image, then there is simply a word-picture of little consequence. But by being charged with emotion, the image gains numinosity (or psychic energy); it becomes dynamic, and consequences of some sort must flow from it.” (p. 87)
This is such a powerful message Stephen. Whenever Joe Campbell comes in my dreams, his image has been charged with emotion or passion, never as if just silently there. In one recent dream, I found myself at Esalen, and we were going in opposite directions. I was exiting Esalen grounds, and he was just entering. I said, “Good Morning Joe”. Joe looked at me, as if hurt, surprised, or a fusion of hurt and surprise. And so when I awoke, that dream stayed with me all day, and of course to this day. Now I recognize why. I had been doubting one specific area of my life, viewed from Joe Campbell’s lens.
Quoting James: “Symbols and images and feelings charged with emotion are a language sending us a signal a dialogue is taking place in the unconscious we should be paying attention to because there is something going on that may need addressing we don’t realize or are not looking at.”
Indeed so James, there was a dialogue going on, consciously and unconsciously. Recently, I had been dwelling more on the “Grand Egress” instead of enjoying my time on earth —-or simply put “Joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world” was fading with each passing day. And, lo and behold, here comes Joe Campbell in my dream, annoyed, unwilling to engage with my silly questions. (Of course, in real life, he would never have done so, Stephen).
Shaheda: Quoting Dreams: A Study of the Dreams of Jung, Descartes, Socrates, and Other Historical Figures (C. G. Jung Foundation Books Series Book 9) Marie-Luise von Franz
Mari-Luise von Franz writes,
1) A dream represents an unconscious reaction to conscious situation.
2) Describes a situation that has come about as a result of a conflict between the conscious and the unconscious.(My very recent Joe Campbell dream)
3) It represents a tendency in the unconscious whose purpose is to affect a change in the conscious.
4) Represents unconscious processes that have no recognizable relation to the conscious.Robert Moss: In his book, “the Three “ONLY” Things”, Moss describes the power of emotions, desires, and passion in our lives and in our dreams, and the impact of our emotions and dreams on the energy field around us.
Quoting Moss:1. “The stronger the emotion, the stronger its effect on our psychic and physical environment. And the effects of our emotions may reach much further than we can initially understand.” The Three “Only” Things: Tapping the Power of Dreams, Coincidence, and Imagination (p. 145).
2. Dreams in which we go back to a scene from our earlier lives, especially when this happens over and over, may indicate that a vital part of our energy and identity is still in that old place. We may find ourselves returning in dreams, again and again, to a childhood home (p.67)I have found myself many times, in my dreams, in Esalen, feeling strongly about an issue or issues, as in my dream where I was exiting Esalen, and Joe was entering and I said, “Good Morning Joe”.
Quoting Dreams: A Study of the Dreams of Jung, Descartes, Socrates, and Other Historical Figures (C. G. Jung Foundation Books Series Book 9) Marie-Luise von Franz
Commenting on Jung’s ‘compensatory and complementary’ function of the dream, Marie Luise writes, ” dreams almost never represent something that is already conscious.”
Hence the surprise when one encounters a situation, an emotion, or a play that was never imagined.Yes “We are all a “work-in-progress” as the saying goes; and we can all benefit. One other thing worth thinking about is “emotion” as a separate subject might be something to consider as this topic concerning “dreams” evolves..” Sometimes, we are pleasantly surprised by our dreams, and sometimes confused, and many times left wondering. My personal view is that the real function of dreams is to get us to wonder, to dream of the magical, and per chance to see one’s dream world coincide with the real world.
Again, so many thanks Stephen and James.
Shaahayda (wondering and dreaming)
Thank you Stephen for this idea of sharing books, essays and journals that helped us on our path to understanding our dream world:
1. Marie Louise Von Franz: Dreams: A Study of the Dreams of Jung, Descartes, Socrates, and Other Historical Figures (C. G. Jung Foundation Books Series Book 9) Marie Louis’ essays approach dreams through many lenses, through a psychological lens, a religious lens, and a historical lens. In her view, dreams can uncover hidden departments of your inner world. She also describes C. G. Jung’s examination of his own dreams and the fascinating connection between his dream world and his life. A fascinating read.
2. Robert Moss; Three Only Things: Tapping the Power of Dreams, Coincidence, and Imagination. There are three themes in this book, a theme of dreams, of imagination and of coincidence. Through stories, of personal coincidences, and their interplay with the dream world, Moss shows us how we too can connect with sources of wisdom and happiness. Our dreams can help develop a new vision, a new perspective on life here on earth. If you like stories, and serendipity, this book is for you. Moss shows us ways to tap into the nine powers of dreaming, the nine rules of coincidence, and the seven uses of imagination.
3. Robert Moss; Conscious Dreaming: In this book, Moss teaches us how to incubate dreams, how to remember them and then to journal them. There are many categories of dreams; the Shamanic dreaming, dreams of our departed loved ones, our angel guides, our spirit guides. He explores the magical and sensuous impact dreams can have on our daily lives.
Shaahayda
Hello James,
Thank you ever so much for your rich and generous look at my dream. It’s late, so I shall be brief. Stephen’s analysis cleared a lot of fog around this dream. The questions to ask about the dream, surroundings, and one’s own sense of the situation. I must admit that you nailed it in this one sentence, ” what I’m saying is that there may something from your past by way of an experience or a message from a dream that is seeking to be understood by the self.” That’s what I had concluded, after examining my recent conscious thoughts and some thoughts on love seemed to conflict with what Joe says in the Power of Myth, Tales of Love and Marriage.
I’ll expand on that later after sitting down and writing a better more coherent piece. This is just to let you know how very much I appreciate your response to my query.
Another very important thing that you wrote was, “But in the later stages of life the mental and emotional focus of the individual begins to shift towards the realization of the later stages which include acceptance and decline and loss of power of that life you have achieved. In other words it may have to do with retirement or legacy concerns or any number of other issues that later life presents that may inter this dream world as well. (In Jungian terms metaphorically speaking; he has often referred to this as the: “Grand Egress or Exit”. That too James!! I have been thinking, writing, and discussing the grand egress for a long time now. As a matter of fact, I wrote a paper on the Grand Egress, which was published in a scholarly journal. Although, I do not like it much now, but it does play into why Joe would not be happy with my present thinking. Smile Smile.
Anyway, I’ll tell you later.
Shaahayda
Hello James,
Thank you for all your suggestions. Dream work is a portal into so many related fields, and also many aspects of self too. When I am recalling and writing my dreams, I am also mindful of what other forces are in play in my life — emotions included.
Thanks James. Testing this too.
Shaahayda
Hello Stephen,
So many thanks for helping me out with this one. Although, I have been writing my dreams quite regularly, but what was missing is the deeper probe into them, and reading them as you just did through your questions and as I could have through my earlier training with you and now through books.
“No dream image has one and only one specific meaning; there are of course multiple layers and many dimensions embedded in each. With that caveat in mind, one of many different ways into a dream is to approach the figures we encounter there as aspects of oneself.”
Yes, I am exploring the figures as aspects of myself. And, all of what you wrote strikes a chord. With much gratitude.
Shaahayda
Hello James,
Your rich post on dreams touches so many important points, and this part in particular for me, You wrote, ” Seeing one’s unknown face in a mirror was difficult but necessary in understanding how a symbol or narrative was playing out in my life and trying to develop a dialogue with this figure and the results were quite revealing. We don’t like to see our dark selves; especially if they are behaving badly; and listening to them is not easy.” Moss has a solid chapter on the subject in his book. He writes, “Dreaming is medicine. This is true in ways that are easily evidenced by medical data.” Clinical studies suggest that people begin to recover from depression when they begin to dream more. Well, I have been dreaming a great deal more than a month ago, and perhaps that’s a good sign too.
James, you had posted something on emotions by Jung, but perhaps through our chat messages. Is it possible to post that reference somewhere here? In last night’s dream, it was a surprise to me that I was driving on a road, and it was midnight, but then my car too, might not have had any lights, because the whole place was pitch black. Dreams show us our conditions, our physical and emotional conditions, and also our surroundings.
All the best James and thank you so much.
Shaahayda
Thank you Stephen for your generous response. I know you are busy, so no problem.
Have you ever dreamed that you are driving on a road, and are very much in control of the car, but can’t see a thing. Well, that’s the kind of dream I had last night. Two or three friends had dinner and then ordered dessert, which was ‘KUL -FI” – a frozen milk (not cream) ice cream with cardamom, but do not remember consuming it. I was the driver, and as I pulled out of the restaurant, I turned right, and found my car and I were engulfed in darkness, it was absolutely pitch black…’noir absolu’..But I kept driving, imagining there would be a traffic light ahead, but my dream ended right there or I do not remember much else. In engaging my AI, I am reminded of two things, 1) The darkest time of night is midnight. 2) I am halfway before dawn. But while driving through the darkness, I remained strong. That’s interesting because I seemed to have read something about strength in dreams, in Moss’ book before falling asleep.
Moss writes, “If you find you have strength and magical powers in dreams that you generally do not exhibit in waking life, you’ll want to try to reach into the dreamspace and bring those powers through, to work for you in your physical life.” Three Only Things– Tapping the Power of Dreams, Coincidence, and Imagination – page 44. I would love to, but he does not elaborate upon how to bring those powers through, or maybe I have not reached that part of the book.
Wondering if we can have discussions on how to tap into the magical powers of our dreams.
Firstly, a big thank you to Stephen for posting rich resources for those interested in dreams, and secondly to James for guiding me to this thread to search dream resources and to place some of my own. This applies to all those who land onto this thread, please enjoy perusing this section of jcf.org. Looks like a gem to me.
Like you, Stephen, I had a number of dream dictionaries, which I voluntarily discarded, and now am leaning towards getting, “A Dictionary of Dream Symbols: With An Introduction to Dream Psychology by Eric Ackroyd”, you suggested. Your other two recommendations: Dream Analysis: Notes of the Seminar Given in 1928-1930 (a 700 page transcript of sessions of the dream work seminar Jung conducted, in English, with a number of psychiatrists and psychologists), which provided a detailed, up-close look at how Jung himself applied active imagination), and Children’s Dreams: Notes from the Seminar Given in 1936 – 1940 (468 pages of transcripts of Jung working with psychologists on dreams) will have to wait, until I catch up with what I have resting at my desk, waiting to be read.
I once had “The Secret History of Dreaming, by Robert Moss”. As I looked at my my present, very lean collection on the subject, I have Jung, James Hillman and Robert Moss, and also Johnson. S
My recommendation is Moss’ “Three Only Things — Tapping the power of dreams, coincidence and Imagination “. Yes, there are dream stories, coincidence stories, and the power of imagination, all packed in one little book. Chapter 10 is rich with ideas, insights, and secrets, yes secrets of imagination. How things happen to Robert Moss, on a plane, at the airport, or standing in a line, is more than mysterious, but in his chapter 10, he has seven secrets to share with the reader.
Shaahayda
