Shaahayda Rizvi
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Marianne,
What a beautiful essay that is so illuminating and walks one to the origin and background of the Nutcracker suite. You are thoroughly blessed with a rich childhood, with dance, music, plays, operas, concerts and books. And your experiences, writings, and readings come through in this poetic essay.
The breaking of a child’s toy, and the sorrow that came along with it, brought back sad memories. I can relate to that, in more than one way. Could taking away a child’s blanket and throwing that into a rubbish bin, be as deeply wounding as breaking a toy? Can a young child tell the difference between intentional act and unintentional act of breaking or discarding toys? Would love to hear your comment.
The Perils of Democratic Equality in India
Introduction
In his book “Just Health”, Norman Daniels notes, when we consider social inequalities in developing countries, we generalize that such inequalities are a logical outcome of deprivation and poverty. But rather poor countries produce excellent health results, and there is a significant socio-economic health deficit in the United States, due to race, even after controlling for income, education and insurance levels. [1]
Similarly, Dr. Michael Marmot argues that a nation’s prosperity does not determine the health and life expectancy of its inhabitants, take for example: Kerala (a State in India) and take for example China, both present good health outcomes despite low incomes. The social processes that lead to this beneficial state of health need not wait for the world order to be changed to relieve poverty in the worst off countries. A social determinants perspective is crucial.[2]
The aim of this essay is to examine a particularly egregious form of social exclusion experienced by a group called ‘Dalits’ in India, and to present how a social determinant, that of ‘occupational rank’ under the umbrella of a social caste structure affects health and well-being throughout life. Excluding the state of Kerala, there exist immense health and human rights violations of the ‘Dalits’ in India.
This paper discusses the Dalit situation through Rawls’ first principle and the difference principle of Justice. Would this particular situation be of special moral importance? Not being of special moral importance denies a community a range of opportunities open to them (Norman Daniels – Just Health – Meeting Needs Fairly – 2008)?
Norman Daniels draws from Rawls’ (1971) definition that health is a ‘natural good’ and adds, that deficits associated with disease and disability reduce the range of opportunity, and to protect the range of opportunities we must protect the socially controllable factors that promote health such as medical services, and distribution of broader social determinants of health.[3] He argues health is not a product of health care but also of other social goods and thus cannot be isolated from broader social justice.[4]
What are Social Determinants of Health
Social determinants of health are conditions in the environments in which people are born, live, learn, work, play, worship, and age that affect a wide range of health, functioning, and quality-of-life outcomes and risks. Conditions (e.g., social, economic, and physical) in these various environments and settings (e.g., school, church, workplace, and neighborhood) have been referred to as “place.”[5] In addition to the more material attributes of “place,” the patterns of social engagement and sense of security and well-being are also affected by where people live. Resources that enhance quality of life can have a significant influence on population health outcomes.[6]The most significant evidence on the relation between health outcomes and socially controllable factor comes from the Whitehall studies, conducted in England by Michael Marmot and his colleagues (1978). In these studies, the social determinant of health is occupational rank. [7] In this paper’s analysis of the ‘Dalits’ in India, the social determinant is also occupational rank, only under the umbrella of a ‘caste system’.
Consider the ’Dalits ’of India & their social determinants of health
Dalits, also known as “Untouchables,” are members of the lowest social status group, or the lowest social rank, in the Hindu caste system. They face discrimination and even violence from members of higher castes, particularly in terms of job opportunities, access to education, and other freedom and liberties. The word ‘Dalit’ means “the oppressed” and members of this group gave themselves the name in the 1930s. A ‘Dalit’ is actually born below the caste system, which includes the four primary castes of Brahmins (priests), Kshatriya (warriors and princes), Vaisya (farmers and artisans) and Shudra (tenant farmers or servants). [8]This essay won’t delve into the trials and misfortunes of the Dalits through India’s past, but highlight their plight through a paragraph from Arundhati Roy’s (The Ministry of Utmost Happiness – 2017) book which describes a typical day in a Dalit’s life, in the India of today. Names and places are fictional, events and circumstances are real. It’s her expressive and sensitive description that draws attention to their cause.
Excerpted from “The Ministry of Utmost Happiness” “Saddam Hussain was his chosen name, not his real name. His real name was Dayachand. He was born into a family of Chamars— skinners— in a village called Badshahpur ……One day, in answer to a phone call, he and his father, along with three other men, hired a Tempo to drive out to a nearby village to collect the carcass of a cow that had died on someone’s farm….…We found the dead cow easily. It’s always easy, you just have to know the art of walking straight into the stink.” [9] They loaded the carcass on to the Tempo and set off for home. On the way they stopped at the Dulina police station to pay the Station House Officer his cut, a previously-agreed-upon sum, a per-cow rate. But that day the officer wanted more not just more but three times the amount.
And their inability to pay ended three lives. The Station House Officer arrested them on a charge of ‘cow-slaughter’ and placed them in the police lock-up. Two hours went by — A few men went into the police station and brought out Saddam’s father and his three friends. Then began the beatings, at first just with fists, and then with shoes. But then someone brought a crowbar, another a car jack and with the first blow, Saddam heard their cries. He had never heard such a sound before. It was a strange, high sound, it wasn’t human. [10] This is not one isolated or fictional event. Human Rights Watch reports that these incidents happen every day, of every year, to countless ‘Dalits’.
The daily beatings, beltings, floggings and final disposition of the ’Dalits’ are generally not covered by regular news channels, but propelled by the coverage on social media, stories of Dalit-atrocities are pouring fuel on dying ambers. On July 21, 2016, “The Hindu” a very respected Indian newspaper, reported: “For the last three days, Gujarat’s Dalit community has been seething with anger over the public flogging of a group of ‘Dalits’ who were skinning a dead cow in Mota Samadhiyala, a village near Una town in Saurashtra region.
“The four men were brutally beaten with steel pipes and iron-rods, they were later stripped, tied to a SUV and dragged through the main market near the local police station in Una. The flogging was filmed, posted on Facebook as a warning to other Dalits.” [11]
While ‘Dalits’, together with other tribes, make up nearly 25 percent of the country’s population, the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) found that the media “provides negligible space to their plight/problems.” Instead, these communities mostly receive attention when the discussion is focused on backwardness, population growth, lack of entrepreneurship and productivity. [12]
Joseph Campbell, American Professor of literature and mythology wrote, “ …In America we have people from all kinds of backgrounds, all in a cluster, together, and consequently law has become very important in this country. Lawyers and law are what hold us together. There is no ethos.”[13] Similarly in India, there is immense plurality in backgrounds, religions, ethnicity, languages, customs, and traditions. There is no ethos. Can law and lawyers offer a safe home to the Dalits in India?
Could the rule of law, especially Rawls’ “democratic equality” – the combination of fair equality opportunity principle with the difference principle be a good first step for the Dalits?
Discussion: Rawls’ Theory of Justice or Beauchamp Childress’ Four Principles
The first principle requires that citizens enjoy equal basic liberties. The difference principle is the second part of John Rawls’ theory of justice. The difference principle says that inequalities in lifetime prospects (as measured by the index of primary social goods) are allowable if the inequalities work to make those who are worst off as well off as possible compared to alternative arrangements. [14]
First Principle of equal basic liberties, although necessary, appears impossible to accomplish, given India’s socio-political climate. Let’s consider the report submitted by the Human Rights Watch and the Center for Human Rights and Global Justice (CHRGJ) at New York University School of Law. This joint-submission was based on in-depth Human Rights Watch investigations on caste discrimination in India and the findings of Indian governmental and non-governmental organizations (NGOs) on caste-based abuses.[15]
The Commission wrote: “…the law enforcement machinery is the greatest violator of Dalits’ human rights. According to the NHRC, widespread custodial torture and killing of Dalits, rape, sexual assault of Dalit women, and looting of Dalit property are condoned or at best ignored.”
Challenges to the fortification of Dalits’ human rights are massive. If the domestic institutions and government agencies, the very institutions appointed to ensure rights and freedoms are violators and perpetrators of crimes against the ‘Dalits’, then where should they turn? Indian government has resisted adhering to international norms which they cite as contradicting local cultural or social values.
Additionally, Western countries—especially the United States—resist international rights cooperation from a concern that it might harm business, infringe on autonomy, or limit freedom of speech. The world struggles to balance democracy’s promise of human rights protection against its historically Western identification.[16]
The difference principle says that inequalities in lifetime prospects (as measured by the index of primary social goods) are allowable if the inequalities work to make those who are worst off as well off as possible compared to alternative arrangements. But in the India of today, NHRC reported: “When Dalits organize to protest their discriminatory treatment and claim their rights, (within the allowable social caste structure) the government fails to protect them, and there are retaliatory attacks by upper-caste groups including the rape of Dalit women.” Are the ’Dalits better off because of claiming their rights?
Would the ’Dalits’ be better off, if the inequalities handed out to them – inequalities where their hard earned earnings, their labor of blood, toil, sweat and tears are not brutally stripped away by the Station Officers, Police, and the Judiciary, or their very livelihood becomes a reason for assault and torture? My answer is “Yes”, in the short run.
It appears that Rawls’ theory of Justice is more valid for developed nations than for developing ones, and in a developing country, like India, with little history of organized labor movements and institutions that safeguard rights of workers, ’Dalits’ remain worse off even allowing for inequalities.
Could resetting priorities in legal settings improve the situation?
Would the ’Dalits’ be better off if the laws were restructured and reordered? Instead of granting equal rights or some “reservation” status to the ‘Dalits’, there would be a restructuring of laws that would forbid the higher caste Hindus from trampling the rights of the ‘Dalits’ or for that matter all citizens. That forbidding the higher caste Hindus from violating the rights of all citizens, would take precedence over all other rights. Nations that are void of strong civil institutions and ethos and lack a sense of ‘do no harm’ to others, need to adopt this one basic moral principle. The law must apply to all citizens, including the judiciary and the law enforcement. Beauchamp Childress’ Four Principles
Beauchamp and Childress’ Four Principles is one of the most widely used frameworks and offers a broad consideration of medical ethics issues, not just for use in medical ethics but also for a universal common morality. These four principles are: respect for autonomy, beneficence, no maleficence, and justice. Beauchamp and Childress believe that their approach to manage ethically difficult cases is cross cultural i.e., it can be used in different cultures such as American, European, and Asian. [17]
Beauchamp thinks that people in all cultures grow up with knowledge of some basic moral rules and an understanding of which demands that these rules be applied to all. This body of basic moral rules constitutes morality in all cultures and Beauchamp calls this shared universal system of precepts the common morality or morality in the narrow sense. From this point of view, there is no difference in basic rules of morality in America, Denmark, Italy, China, and Japan (and India). According to Beauchamp the “object of morality is to prevent or limit problems of indifference, conflict, hostility, scarce resources, limited information, and the like”. [18] Could the inclusion of Beauchamp- Childress’ Four Principles in the Indian Constitution, before any other social guarantees, offer some relief to the confounding caste structure?
Indian Constitution and Reality
Is a reduction in conflict, hostility and cruelty in a country such as India, possible, where it is said: “… the police are increasingly becoming a threat to the Rule of Law’’. And the politicians perceive a divinity of sorts, deeming themselves as being above the Law.[19]To avoid inequities and to guarantee fundamental liberties of a person, India has a very comprehensive Constitution: Article 14 of the Indian Constitution provides for equality and Article 21 of the Indian Constitution bestows protection of life and personal liberty. [20] Yet, widespread violation of human rights and liberties are the norm of the day.
In light of Daniels’ view that health is not a product of health care but also of other social goods and thus cannot be isolated from broader social justice, necessity of adopting Beauchamp & Childress’ four principles cannot be emphasized enough. The four principles could be applied to all individuals and Institutions, especially the very instruments of governance.
For any right to fundamental liberties and guarantees of equality to succeed, including a program that allows inequalities so that the conditions of the worst off may improve, the principle of Nonmaleficence (Do no harm) should precede all others. Can we close such a vast gap in social structure and promote justice, for the sake of health and equal opportunity? Could Beauchamps’ principle of morality be an answer to this unimaginable inequity? If supported by institutions of global justice, it’s worth a try.
In India of today the aggravation is in granting the ‘Dalits’ their reservation rights in lieu of past injustices, which only work at amusing the Station Officers, looking for their cuts from the Dalits (Arundhati Roy 2017) —the so-called reservation status simply adds to the hostilities, and ethnic violence. Therefore, support from the global institutions of justice is essential. Unless an International institution compels the global community to make basic human rights absolutely paramount and business interests secondary, hearings and reports by Commissions would remain ineffective and pointless.
In surveying the Dalit situation, it appears, that neither Socratic justice, nor Egalitarianism but inclusion of Beauchamp & Childress’ four principles to the Indian Constitution along with a system of global governance be a new International Health and Human Rights watch agenda.
Bibliography
[1] Daniels, Norman. 2008. Just health: meeting health needs fairly. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. (Page 79)
[2] Marmot, M et al (2008): Closing the gap in a generation: health equity through action on the social determinants of health. Lancet, 372: 1661-69.
[3] Ibid Page 21
[4] Ibid Page 22
[5] The Institute of Medicine. Disparities in Health Care: Methods for Studying the Effects of Race, Ethnicity, and SES on Access, Use, and Quality of Health Care, 2002.
[6] https://www.healthypeople.gov/2020/topics-objectives/topic/social-determinants-of-health
[7] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-inequality-health/
[8] https://www.thoughtco.com/who-are-the-dalits-195320
[9] Roy, Arundhati. 2017. The Ministry of Utmost Happiness. [S.l.]: Penguin books India.
[10] Ibid (1362 of 6459 – Kindle Book)
[11] http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/Gujarat-has-history-of-atrocities-and-discrimination-against-Dalits/article14499609.ece
[12] National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) NHRC Report, Section VI, p. 134
[13] Campbell, J., & Moyers, B. D. (2005). Joseph Campbell and the power of myth with Bill Moyers. New York, NY: Mystic Fire Video.
[14] Rawls, John. 2005. A theory of justice. Cambridge, Mass: Belknap Press
[15] https://www.hrw.org/report/2007/02/12/hidden-apartheid/caste-discrimination-against-indias-untouchables
[16] https://www.hrw.org/report/2007/02/12/hidden-apartheid/caste-discrimination-against-indias-untouchables
[17] Ebbesen M, Andersen S, Pedersen BD (2012) Further Development of Beauchamp and Childress’ Theory Based on Empirical Ethics. J Clinic Res Bioeth S6:e001. doi:10.4172/2155-9627.S6-e001
[18] Ibid
[20] http://www.legalserviceindia.com/articles/art222.htmlChris,
I absolutely love what you just quoted from T. S. Elliot, and you go on to elaborate the still point, “The stillness is that aspired to by the practicioner of yoga, the deliberate cessation of the spontaneous motion of the mind-stuff, in which state the individual consciousness is united with the nameless ground of being.”
Dr. Gardner’s beautiful description of the still point which resonates with me, “The still point happens when modes of knowing meet and mingle. They amaze each other, change each other. Both of them realize that they aren’t separate at all but instead, they exist within each other. Then a new thing emerges and consciousness expands, growing its field of possibility to include more than it was able to before.”
Would it be fair to say that you have visited that space, that stillness, but the ‘WHERE’ part can’t be described?
Jameson, Marianne & All,
Your appreciation of Dr. Gardner’s article is just as elegant as the original Mythblast article.
Jameson you wrote,” what moved me the most was the personal aspect; which reminded me of: Dorthey and her companions in the “Wizard of Oz”; each had their gifts to bestow; but it was Dorthey’s steadfast devotion to her quest that in the end took her home.” This resonated with me Jameson — steadfast devotion is indeed the still point! That steadfast devotion, that still point is the Nirvana. As Joe Campbell said, “Nirvana is right here, in the midst of the turmoil of life. It is the state you find when you are no longer driven to live by compelling desires, fears, and social commitments, when you have found your center of freedom and can act by choice out of that. Voluntary action out of this center is the action of the bodhisattvas -” (Power of Myth).
Marianne,
So very beautifully expressed, and immensely enjoyed your piece too. You wrote, ” Suspend or suspension shares the root word with suspense. When we hear something that emits that sense of timelessness, that stillness, when we entertain imaginally our memories of our loved ones who have passed on before us, we are is a mode of suspension on the bridge or suspense—as we go from here to there and back again.” Is this like the aesthetic arrest that Joyce discusses, which most people like myself have understood through Campbell’s explanation of the same. “The aesthetic experience is a simple beholding of the object….you experience a radiance. You are held in aesthetic arrest.” Could this suspension or sense of timelessness be quite like Joyce’s aesthetic arrest?
Dr. Gardner,
Quoting you, “All my life, I’ve been drawn to passages in literature where the strange or impossible irrupts into the known world. Those moments feel the most real, the most alive, the most true.” I’ll echo Stephen in appreciating your words, “an elegant excursion into the heart of a mythic image. Your lyrical language evoked the memory of experiences of my own that placed me on pause, pitching me for a brief moment – or maybe an eternity”.
In my own experience, it was in the odd, in the most unimaginable, yet very real and true — that weird, impossible, improbable thought took over my entire being. And when the beloved image looked back, there was no effort to hold the gaze, the gaze was held by an energy far stronger than any other energy before this. As if time stood still?
In that moment of stillness, my image of myself changed. Previous images of self dissolved, and the information gathered through that one gaze, permeated my neural pathways.
Thank you again for such an elegant piece.
Hello All,
It takes time and brain power to go through all the fascinating posts above, hence I am just picking up a few illuminating points from the most recent post on this topic.
Mythistorian, thank you Thank you for your illuminating piece, quoting Marx,
“It is just as Marx put it in a wonderfully psychological way (a quote that has been ringing in my ears for the last few days):
“Just as our opinion of an individual is not based on what he thinks of himself, so can we not judge of such a period of transformation by its own consciousness; on the contrary, this consciousness must be explained rather from the contradictions of material life, from the existing conflict between the social productive forces and the relations of production.” (Preface of A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy)”
So Marx is saying that our opinion of ourselves is different from the opinions of others, because the opinions of others (the collective) is shaped by the forces (means) of production ? I find it very true, because that is how huge profits are made, by shaping the views of the collective for or against, however, the opposite is also true, that is, our opinion of ourselves (sometimes) is shaped by how people react to us, look at us, place us in categories that are based on their personal prejudices. We act and react to what is said about us. It’s just natural. What do you think?
Nandu, Stephen and all,
Continuing with our previous few threads on the caste system in India, and why it’s endemic? I’d like to ask a question, once again.
Joseph Campbell said, “In America we have people from all kinds of backgrounds, all in a cluster, together, and consequently law has become very important in this country. Lawyers and law are what hold us together. There is no ethos.” I think it’s the same situation in India, so many groups and clusters. This particular Indian song comes to my mind,
“chhaliya mera naam
chhaliya mera naam, chhaliya mera naam
hindu muslim sikh isaai sabko mera salam
hindu muslim sikh isaai sabko mera salam”(Chhalia is a 1960 Indian Bollywood drama film directed by Manmohan Desai.[3] It stars Raj Kapoor, Nutan, Pran,[4] Rehman[5] and Shobhna Samarth. The story is loosely based on the 1848 short story “White Nights” by Fyodor Dostoyevsky, but is focused on the issue of estranged wives and children in the aftermath of Partition.[6][7][8][9] ) Source Wikie
Based on the above premise that India has a hundred or more groups, religions, races, languages, customs, and to hold them together, we need laws, and lawyers. Therefore, I question India’s legislative and law enforcement agencies and their power over the people in discussing the caste system.
My question, “Could resetting priorities in legal settings improve the situation? Would the ’Dalits’ be better off if the laws were restructured and reordered? Instead of granting equal rights or some “reservation” status to the ‘Dalits’, there would be a restructuring of laws that would forbid the higher caste Hindus from trampling the rights of the ‘Dalits’ or for that matter all citizens. That forbidding the higher caste Hindus from violating the rights of all citizens, would take precedence and weight over all other rights. Nations that are void of strong civil institutions and ethos and lack a sense of ‘do no harm’ to others, need to adopt this one basic moral principle. The law must apply to all citizens, including the judiciary and the law enforcement. ” ( Essay on Dalits by Shaheda )
Joseph Campbell Quote:
Every act has both good and evil results. Every act in life yields pairs of opposites in its results. The best we can do is lean toward the light, toward the harmonious relationships that come from compassion with suffering, from understanding the other person.”
― Joseph Campbell (Power of Myth)Nandu,
With India’s eco-socio-political machinery operating in a rigid caste structure, what sort of operation, do you propose?
Consider the ’Dalits ’of India’
Excerpted from “The Ministry of Utmost Happiness”: “Saddam Hussain was his chosen name, not his real name. His real name was Dayachand. He was born into a family of Chamars— skinners— in a village called Badshahpur ……One day, in answer to a phone call, he and his father, along with three other men, hired a Tempo to drive out to a nearby village to collect the carcass of a cow that had died on someone’s farm….…We found the dead cow easily. It’s always easy, you just have to know the art of walking straight into the stink.” [2] They loaded the carcass on to the Tempo and set off for home. On the way they stopped at the Dulina police station to pay the Station House Officer his cut, a previously-agreed-upon sum, a per-cow rate. But that day the officer wanted more not just more but three times the amount.
And this inability to pay ended three lives. What is bone-chilling is the manner of ending these lives. The Station House Officer arrested them on a charge of ‘cow-slaughter’ and placed them in the police lock-up. Two hours went by — A few men went into the police station and brought out Saddam’s father and his three friends. Then began the beatings, at first just with fists, and then with shoes. But then someone brought a crowbar, another a car jack and with the first blow, Saddam heard their cries. He had never heard such a sound before. It was a strange, high sound, it wasn’t human. [3] This is not one isolated or fictional event. Human Rights Watch reports that these incidents happen every day, of every year, to countless ‘Dalits’.
The daily beatings, beltings, floggings and final disposition of the ’Dalits’ are generally not covered by regular news channels, but propelled by the coverage on social media, stories of Dalit-atrocities are pouring fuel on dying ambers. On July 21, 2016, “The Hindu” a very respected Indian newspaper, reported: “For the last three days, Gujarat’s Dalit community has been seething with anger over the public flogging of a group of ‘Dalits’ who were skinning a dead cow in Mota Samadhiyala, a village near Una town in Saurashtra region.
“The four men were brutally beaten with steel pipes and iron-rods, they were later stripped, tied to a SUV and dragged through the main market near the local police station in Una. The flogging was filmed, posted on Facebook as a warning to other Dalits.” [4]
While ‘Dalits’, together with other tribes, make up nearly 25 percent of the country’s population, the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) found that the media “provides negligible space to their plight/problems.” Instead, these communities mostly receive attention when the discussion is focused on backwardness, population growth, lack of entrepreneurship and productivity. [5]
Could Rawls’ “democratic equality” – the combination of fair equality opportunity principle with the difference principle be a good first step for the Dalits?
[2] Roy, Arundhati. 2017. The Ministry of Utmost Happiness. [S.l.]: Penguin books India.
[3] Ibid (1362 of 6459 – Kindle Book)
[4] http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/Gujarat-has-history-of-atrocities-and-discrimination-against-Dalits/article14499609.ece
[5] National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) NHRC Report, Section VI, p. 134From ― Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Dimension – Comparative Mythology
“It is not easy for students to realize that to ask, as they often do, whether God exists and is merciful, just, good, or wrathful, is simply to project anthropomorphic concepts into a sphere to which they do not pertain. As the Upaniṣads declare: ‘There, words do not reach.’ Such queries fall short of the question. And yet—as the student must also understand—although that mystery is regarded in the Orient as transcendent of all thought and naming, it is also to be recognized as the reality of one’s own being and mystery. That which is transcendent is also immanent. And the ultimate function of Oriental myths, philosophies, and social forms, therefore, is to guide the individual to an actual experience of his identity with that; tat tvam asi (‘Thou art that’) is the ultimate word in this connection.
And again, from POM:
“We typically live in a world of duality: good and bad, true and untrue, but mythology shows us that there’s an underlying union between the polarities, a Yin and Yang where there is always some good in bad and vice versa. There is no black and white.
The denial of mythology, and the absence of transcendent religious experiences, is what Campbell thinks has turned young people to drugs.”
Quote:
“A constant image [in myths] is that of the conflict of the eagle and the serpent. The serpent bound to the earth, the eagle in spiritual flight – isn’t that conflict something we all experience? And then, when the two amalgamate, we get a wonderful dragon, a serpent with wings.”
― Joseph Campbell, The Power of MythExamples of duality and how to deal with the good and bad:
Perhaps, in “Myths to Live By”.. “If a hijacker wants to board your plane, you are not going to say, come right in…”
Hello Kenneth,
So this is from the Power of Myth:
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Whenever one moves out of the transcendent, one comes into a field of opposites. These two pairs of opposites come forth as male and female from the two sides. What has eaten of the tree of the knowledge, not only of good and evil, but of male and female, of right and wrong, of this and that, and light and dark. Everything in the field of time is dual, past and future, dead and alive. All this, being and nonbeing, is, isn’t.
BILL MOYERS: And what’s the significance of them being beside the mask of God, the mask of eternity? What is this sculpture saying to us?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: The mask represents the middle, and the two represent the two opposites, and they always come in pairs. And put your mind in the middle; most of us put our minds on the side of the good against what we think of as evil. It was Heraclitus, I think, who said, “For God all things are good and right and just, but for man some things are right and others are not.” You’re in the field of time when you’re man, and one of the problems of life is to life in the realization of both terms. That is to say, I know the center and I know that good and evil are simply temporal apparitions.
BILL MOYERS: Well, are some myths more or less true than others?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: They’re true in different senses, do you see? Here’s a whole mythology based on the insight that transcends duality. Ours is a mythology that’s based on the insight of duality
Hello Kenneth, I like your question regarding links, books, quotes from Campbell on defining what is good or bad. You write, “For example I have a question for a documentary I am directing about the myths associated with the meaning of good and bad.”
I recall Campbell referring to good and bad in his discussions on duality, in the Power of Myth (Discussions with Bill Moyer). He says, we live in the world of opposites, “good or bad, night and day, black and white” ….and the talk develops on duality.
I’ll search that topic and write back. Sorry, I am so late in responding to this excellent question.
Hello Nandu, Stephen, Marianne and Everyone else on this thread,
I am intrigued by Nandu’s comment, “caste system is endemic to India. It’s not an aberration; it’s what defines society. ” I agree. Indian society, its traditions, its folktales, its rituals, its rankings and gradings all point to a hard-core caste system. Nehru tried desperately to rid the Indian society from this endemic lore, but he could not. What would (Nehru) say, were he to look at the conditions of the Dalits now? And, as you and Nandu suggest, Stephen, ” the caste system is not confined to any one religion, but is how society is organized.” Yes, the entire legal, political, socio-economic model is organized to keep Dalits, as the lowest of the lowest in the rankings of the Indian caste system.
I had written a paper on the Daalits, and their treatment by the law enforcement, by the media, by the Indian Parliament. If you don’t mind, I’ll post excerpts here.
Hello John, Stephen, Maryanne, et al.,
Maryanne, as usual I loved reading your views on the topic.
You write, ” I am wondering how similar the mentor and one who is mentored might be at the get-go, from the very start and how often you know of stories in which they seemed opposites at first or to have some opposing qualities and then later find similarities.”
Your question, “how often you know of stories in which they seemed opposites at first or to have some opposing qualities and then later find similarities.” resonated with me, and I’ll have to tell a personal story about myself and my in-person mentor, my Uncle, to explore opposing qualities. Even in opposing qualities, a story is told.
Story: My Uncle Athur, my mentor, was an Indian Air Force Officer/Pilot from 1940 – late. 1970s. He chose not to leave India at the time of the Partition, in 1947, and settled in a lovely area in Hyderabad, which is near Bangalore, India.
My father, Safdar, (Athur’s brother) was a Junior Railway Officer in the Indian Railways of 1940s, a few years before I was born, but at the time of the partition, he chose to leave Indian Railways, and was promptly transferred to the Pakistan Railways. He became a Signals Officer in the Pakistan Railways of the 50s. His job involved tracking signals, and railway lines under scorching sun, sometimes in a trolley. The salary of the Railway Officers in a new country was just pittance. Therefore, there were a few perks in the way of two small private saloons, which are a home on wheels that go wherever the Railway lines go. One Saloon for the narrow-gauge and one for broad-gauge, both for my father’s exclusive use. Employees were also given a house, which is where my Uncle visited us.
It was his (mentor – Uncle’s) habit to set his suit case, and a few pieces of clothing in one section of the house where they were well-guarded and safe. I was about 12 years old then, and spotted a very elegant perfume bottle among his belongings, and I took it upon myself to dab a little one morning, before heading out to school. At school, I was met with lovely flattering compliments, “how lovely you smell”, “where did you get this scent?” “Oh can you get us some?” Oh the compliments kept coming. Encouraged by the compliments, I made it my morning ritual to dab a bit the entire week. Mind you, all without my mentor’s knowledge and consent.
One day when I returned from school, my mentor-Uncle had flown back to India, and my mother presented me with that beautiful (still ¾ full) perfume bottle, saying, your Uncle left this for you. He had not said a word about my clandestine activities. Relieved I took the bottle and used it well. Never had a chance to thank him, really.
The reason for this story is that Maryanne’s question, “how often you know of stories in which they seemed opposites at first or to have some opposing qualities and then later find similarities.” lit a light bulb in my brain. That my in-person mentor and I were opposites. He was a very ethical, noble, kind and caring man, and I a younger 12 year old, had neither ethics, nor care, nor nobility in my heart.
On discussing this with Maryanne, last night, she brought in the idea of the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone, and James Hillman’s, senex and puer.
Shaheda
