R³
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Hello,
I guess for me to a certain extent science and myth are synonymous. It is the ancient myths and sciences that modern science comes from. Old scientific hypothesis’s and theories are discarded and told as myths. I love keeping up on modern science discovery technology and innovation. CRISP , CERN , ITER , SETI , the Human Genome and Connectome project , quantum , computing , communication , medicine , longevity , anthropology , archeology , etc. I’ve devoured most of the modern science communicators. Sagan , deGrasse Tyson , Kaku , Green , Hawking , and many others. Lots of fun. Much of history point out how sure we thought we were in our knowledge and how wrong we actually really were. I see no reason for this trajectory to stop. In fact it seems to be exponentially increasing. What will our descendants think of us 1000 , 10000 years from now. Perhaps some future archeologist will uncover an Apple computer logo and all. Do an etymological symbolism search that will bring them back to mythic Eden the tree of knowledge , the beginning of written history then past that to prehistory and the Big Bang . Ex nihilo .
would make a fun narrative. All hail science and the disruptive technology it produces that Falls from a Tree like a ripe fruit whose time has come in its season and time.R³
Shaheda
just some additional associations and musings that come to mind.
”Where did The Book of Kells get its name? The book gets its name from the monastery of Kells, County Meath, Ireland. The book is believed to have been brought to Kells following a Viking raid on the monastery on the island of Iona, Scotland, in 806.”
”Kells or Ceanannas Mór in Irish meaning ‘Great Fort’ was a Celtic Royal residence before St. Columcille founded a monastery in the 6th Century. The monks from his community on the island of Iona off the west coast of Scotland moved to Kells in the 9th century to escape savage Viking raids.”
The Book Of Kells is depicted on the cover of Joseph Campbell’s book “ A Skeleton Key To Finnegans Wake”
Of course these are just poetic associations that can only have meaning in the minds of those who attribute and seek them. It is lots of fun for me ! These are all tentative referential tangents . Thank you for bringing them to my mind !
I have an ongoing poetic entendre infatuation with vehicles or vessels of conveyance of which trains are one. I enjoy musing on the evolution of the transportation of the spirit of life. From the origins to the present and on to the future. From Light (all hail the personification of sunlight in Solar deity myths) to mineral to the Miller–Urey experiment to vegetable then animal kingdom. The economy of life on planet earth truly is solar. From the African great Rift Valley. We walked we swam we rode animals we created chariots boats ships Coaches trains automobiles planes rockets drones civilizations . The spirit traveled through concretized forms of flesh and machina. Lots of fun to conflate.
Also kel (a field name denoting a swampy land) brings to my mind Moses conveying the mixed multitude the children of Israel across the Red Sea or Sea of Reeds.
R³
Stephen,
Yes apotheosis is always an issue. That is why I always maintain a sense of humor on these matter. Especially when someone else’s words seem appropriate and seem to give me a voice where I once was mute, give me sight where once I was blind but now I see. Of course Brian is code for and symbolic of a dyslexic brain !!! Vowel impositioning reversal mirroring can lead to comic relief in the tragic drama of life. It only hurts when I laugh. I only laugh when I’m suffering.
R³
Stephen,
Your preaching to the choir. No need to attack critics for me. Criticizing the critic is entering the slippery slope toward mutually acclaimed anathema. There is room enough for descension.
Joseph Campbell’s place as founding pillar of his institution The JCF is secure. There are many good soldiers in the the army of Joe. G.I. Joe’s one and all. The JCF has its hierarchy in place with many good administrators. May the spirit of Mr. Campbell receive protection and live through his growing institution. May the axis of Mount Campbell never completely solidify concretize petrify. May the wellspring and magma flow eternal from its source. May the growing verdant fertile Bush burn forever bright, “Bloom”, at its pinnacle.
I think a mythopoetic etymological study of the name Joseph from a Judeo-Christian perspective would shed some understanding on Joseph Campbell’s position as founding father of his institution. It is very Jungian and archetypical. Which does lead to egalitarian patriarchal structural schema. All hail seminal figures and thinkers that rely on a priori narratives and structures. Joseph Campbell is a giant that stands head and shoulders above the rest.
I for one am in favor of some good natured old fashioned hagiography and hero worship being tossed Mr. Campbell’s way. It is become a dying art form. He is a man that darned many a hat wore many a mask during his incarnation his visitation his Journey here on 🌎 this Pale Blue Dot. Perhaps the recruitment of some anonymous pseudonymous writer artists is in order. Someone that could create a Virtual ARQ to float and transverse the abyss of cyberspace bringing us forever by commodious vicus back to this feed. As food for thought.
R³
Hello,
One more . I leave the rest to those whom to enter the cave of search engines:
Bashing Joseph Campbell: Is He Now the Hero of a Thousand Spaces?
Hello,
I believe in this day and age it is recommended to weigh all pros and cons in areas we deem interesting. With the advent of the computer internet google and other search engines we don’t suffer from lack of information. In fact we now suffer from information overload. I believe this a good thing because it creates more discernible individuals. There are many critiques and criticisms of Joseph Campbell on the web. I enjoy reading them all. I also still enjoy Joseph Campbell after reading what the critics have to say. The rabbit hole that is the internet is also a honeycomb cave. I read all with no fear. I take all with as a grain of salt . I do like salt that Crystal clear Cubic mineral preservative essential for the proper function of life. I enjoy myth metaphor allegory etymology. I thank Joseph Campbell for flaming a spark in my active imagination and streams of consciousness. My life has been enriched for having read him along with many others. It has been and will continue to be Lots of Fun. I live my life as a Wake … as possible thanks to JC JJ et al …I like to to think of Joseph Campbell as the reigning priest in the grove of popular myth. Aka the sacred grove of Diana at Nemi. Critics and contenders have challenged. Still none have toppled or conquered JC in this pop grove of myth. Yes there are more knowledgeable specialists in their respective fields. May they propagate harvest produce a bounty . But none come close to communicating with the flair of general knowledge the way JC does through his work and writing. May ”The Golden Bough” “Bloom” eternal !!! May the …,phrase you’re,… contemplating wax wane reign forever poetic !!! All hail perennial Humanity !!!
May JC take his place as a leaf on the Tree of Life !!!
“In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
from wiki article on Joseph Campbell.
“Academic reception and criticism
Campbell’s approach to myth, a genre of folklore, has been the subject of criticism from folklorists, academics who specialize in folklore studies. American folklorist Barre Toelken notes that few psychologists have taken the time to become familiar with the complexities of folklore, and that, historically, Jung-influenced psychologists and authors have tended to build complex theories around single versions of a tale that supports a theory or a proposal. To illustrate his point, Toelken employs Clarissa Pinkola Estés’s (1992) Women Who Run with the Wolves, citing its inaccurate representation of the folklore record, and Campbell’s “monomyth” approach as another. Regarding Campbell, Toelken writes, “Campbell could construct a monomyth of the hero only by citing those stories that fit his preconceived mold, and leaving out equally valid stories… which did not fit the pattern”. Toelken traces the influence of Campbell’s monomyth theory into other then-contemporary popular works, such as Robert Bly’s Iron John: A Book About Men (1990), which he says suffers from similar source selection bias.[73]Similarly, American folklorist Alan Dundes is highly critical of both Campbell’s approach to folklore, designating him as a “non-expert” and outlining various examples of source bias in Campbell’s theories, as well as media representation of Campbell as an expert on the subject of myth in popular culture. Dundes writes, “Folklorists have had some success in publicising the results of our efforts in the past two centuries such that members of other disciplines have, after a minimum of reading, believe they are qualified to speak authoritatively of folkloristic matters. It seems that the world is full of self-proclaimed experts in folklore, and a few, such as Campbell, have been accepted as such by the general public (and public television, in the case of Campbell)”. According to Dundes, “there is no single idea promulgated by amateurs that has done more harm to serious folklore study than the notion of archetype”.[74]
According to anthropologist Raymond Scupin, “Joseph Campbell’s theories have not been well received in anthropology because of his overgeneralizations, as well as other problems.”[75]
Campbell’s Sanskrit scholarship has been questioned. Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, a former Sanskrit professor at the University of Toronto, said that he once met Campbell, and that the two “hated each other at sight”, commenting that, “When I met Campbell at a public gathering, he was quoting Sanskrit verses. He had no clue as to what he was talking about; he had the most superficial knowledge of India but he could use it for his own aggrandizement. I remember thinking: this man is corrupt. I know that he was simply lying about his understanding”.[76] According to Richard Buchen, librarian of the Joseph Campbell Collection at the Pacifica Graduate Institute, Campbell could not translate Sanskrit well. However, Buchen adds that Campbell worked closely with three scholars who did translate Sanskrit well.[77]
Ellwood observes that The Masks of God series “impressed literate laity more than specialists”; he quotes Stephen P. Dunn as remarking that in Occidental Mythology Campbell “writes in a curiously archaic style – full of rhetorical questions, exclamations of wonder and delight, and expostulations directed at the reader, or perhaps at the author’s other self – which is charming about a third of the time and rather annoying the rest.” Ellwood notes that “Campbell was not really a social scientist, and those in the latter camp could tell” and records a concern about Campbell’s “oversimpification of historical matters and tendency to make myth mean whatever he wanted it to mean”.[78] The critic Camille Paglia, writing in Sexual Personae (1990), expressed disagreement with Campbell’s “negative critique of fifth-century Athens” in Occidental Mythology, arguing that Campbell missed the “visionary and exalted” androgyny in Greek statues of nude boys.[79] Paglia has written that while Campbell is “a seminal figure for many American feminists”, she loathes him for his “mawkishness and bad research.” Paglia has called Campbell “mushy” and a “false teacher”,[80] and described his work as a “fanciful, showy mishmash”.[81]
Campbell has also been accused of antisemitism by some authors. In a 1989 New York Review of Books article, Brendan Gill accused Campbell of both antisemitism and prejudice against blacks.[82] Gill’s article resulted in a series of letters to the editor, some supporting the charge of antisemitism or accusing Campbell of having various right-wing biases, others defending him. However, according to Robert S. Ellwood, Gill relied on “scraps of evidence, largely anecdotal” to support his charges.[83] In 1991, Masson also accused Campbell of “hidden anti-Semitism” and “fascination with conservative, semifascistic views”.[84] Contrarily, the “fascist undercurrents” in Campbell’s work and especially its influence on Star Warshave been called “a reminder of how easily totalitarianism can knock at any society’s door.”[85]
The religious studies scholar Russell T. McCutcheon characterized the “following [of] the bliss of self-realization” in Campbell’s work as “spiritual and psychological legitimation” for Reaganomics.[86]”
Frazer = ,phrase you’re,
Stephen,
Yes totally agree. In this forum I consciously and purposely push the envelope. Loki like. You know. We are humans with brain & mind the most complex and marvelous thing in the known universe. Some speculate our brain is a organic quantum computer. I love science I love myth I love theory I love hypothesis I love thesis I love antithesis I love synthesis I love Art. I love little baby ducks and rain , Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens ,and last but not least James Joyce , Joseph Campbell, books and the Bible …
R³
“All the stars, planets and galaxies that can be seen today make up just 4 percent of the universe. The other 96 percent is made of stuff astronomers can’t see, detect or even comprehend. These mysterious substances are called dark energy and dark matter.”
“Many humans get uncomfortable in temperatures above 30C, but there are organisms out there that can live perfectly well in boiling water.”
But would you walk on fire ?🔥
Can you close your eyes and see the Burning Bush of Life with your minds eye ? Can you imagine sense the possibility of it burning on exoplanets? Can you imagine the spark within ?
As far as esoterica goes I enjoy it also as archaic idioms of thought. Lots of fun to empathize with. I enjoy pattern recognition. Did you known five often represented the 5 senses in esoteric traditions? I wonder what Joyce was alluding to with the five axels of The Coach With Six Insides ??? 5 states of matter ??? “In physics, a state of matter is one of the distinct forms in which matter can exist. Four states of matter are observable in everyday life: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma.” The quintessence ???
The Quantum superpositioning of entendre, of meaning of metaphor ? Now there’s a collapse a fall to a condensate !!! ReJoyce !!! I can hear Einstein Now through Bose acoustic wave machine …
10Q
For listening to Radio Gaga !!!
RCubed
If Mr. Campbell wanted to know why he was shivering he should have stated so in his question. Forming and Asking the proper question is the first obstacle. Especially when dealing with little monsters …
Stephen,
For me the distinction is more basic and primal . The sensory awareness of heat is an evolved characteristic of life. Evolved to aid in survival through natural selection. A response to heat is also an evolved characteristic of life … Though it could be argued that inanimate matter also responds to heat. Which begs the question what is Life? Abstract concepts like degrees and pain are constructs of mind ? Water boils where it boils what we name that point , call that point, is a symbolic representation a metaphor. 373.15°K. There is also the effects of gravity pressure impurities to take into consideration with regards to the boiling point of water. But wherever two or more are gathered in agreement fruitful discourse can be under taking. I do so enjoy the mythic spirit of Truth and where It is planted buried by the under taking of the undertaker …
Heat thermal convection ? Cycle ?
“An MIT physicist has proposed the provocative idea that life exists because the law of increasing entropy drives matter to acquire lifelike physical properties.“
R³
Clarke Quotes. “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
Any sufficiently primitive technology is indistinguishable from myth.
“A rebuttal to the ambiguous “sufficiently advanced” part has been offered by another science fiction author: “Any technology, no matter how primitive, is magic to those who don’t understand it.””
“In boiling, bubbles of gas form throughout the liquid. They rise to the surface and escape to the surroundings, forming a gas. The amount of energy needed to change state from solid to liquid, and from liquid to gas, depends on the strength of the forces between the particles of a substance.”
“Yes, every element can be made solid, liquid, or gas. It will take very high temperatures to make Tungsten gas, and very low temperatures and high pressure to make solid helium. No, not all elementshave a triple point between the three traditional phases.”
“Boiling is a phase transition from the liquid phase to the gas phase that occurs at or above the boiling temperature. Boiling is the rapid vaporization of a liquid and occurs when a liquid is heated to its boiling point.”
That boiling water is painful to the touch of a living human is a giving. What that pain is how it is received perceived interpreted measured, is open to contextual analysis. To adhere to and project one right answer is against the scientific method. It is conforming to dogma. Dogma is always a safe path, but there is always more beyond.
A ‘dogma’ is defined as a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority and held to be incontrovertibly true. However, rarely if ever can dogmatic claims be made in science.
Where poetic Myths boil in the cauldron in the crucible … that is where the pain and suffering of life is … Lots of fun to imagine the rising the ascension from the turmoil … “Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and caldron bubble.”
Richard Feynman
On scientific method -looking for a new law
Guess
Compute consequences of guess to see if right
Compare to nature, experiment, or experience, observation
If it disagrees, it’s wrong
Science does not prove what is possible or impossible only what is less likely or more likely
I think from knowledge from world around me that it’s more likely that the reports of flying saucers are the result of the known irrational characteristics of terrestrial intelligence than the unknown rational efforts of extraterrestrial intelligence.
Try to guess the most likely explanation if it doesn’t work talk about other possibilities
We can only prove something wrong , we can never prove it right.
We can never be right only sure we are wrong
You cannot prove a vague theory wrong
The problem with changing known laws is knowing what to replace them with and whyThe Spirit of Truth
Now that’s some amber waves of grain !!!
Admire her admire her. God shed his grace on thee !!
Oops sorry I mean America !!
That’s some American women !!!
The time for being concerned about how the truth is packaged is over.
What is important Now is that you understand the spirit of The Truth .
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R³
For me the laws of science and the laws of God correspond and are synonymous.
“Know then thyself, presume not God to scan, The proper study of mankind is Man.”
Hello,
Just thought I would place this in the scientific mix.
“Neurochemistry of love”
“The conventional view in biology is that there are three major drives in love – libido, attachment, and partner preference. The primary neurochemicals (neurotransmitters, sex hormones, and neuropeptides) that govern these drives are testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, oxytocin, and vasopressin.“
Tis the stuff of what myths and narratives are made …
If Sargent Pepper (peppers are hot the spice of life) symbolizes heat Eros Life then The Romance symbolizes cold Thanatos death ??? The Marching tune doth convey … Life ends in death , death ends in Life …
”’I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. ‘” Mark Twain
my Alchemical Romance … My Chemical Romance …
Nigredo !!! when I was a Jung boy …
Mars,
I assure you I am neither genius or hermit, just an inquisitive east coast dude that enjoys reading and sharing thoughts. Your translation skill are excellent. It is a joy to read your translated thoughts. I could not imaging attempting to translate my poetic musings into a foreign tongue . Thank you for your input.
Robert
Jufa,
i enjoy your writing style.
The self, as reality itself, is a figment of the imagination caused by the persistence of memory . But it works. Lots of fun to contemplate and play with. There are a multitude of myths metaphors allegories hypothesis’s theories conjectures worldviews to chose from. The best we can do is understand our own and attempt to empathize with others . We do have lives to live and enrich . Our time is short and fleeting. The best we can do is attempt to enrich our life and the life of others through meaningful coherent exchange of thought and ideas.
Cogito ergo sum
Robert R Reister
R cubed
Stephen,
By all means feel free to repost move delete add to augment edit critique any and all of my posts. Your curating patients administration tasks are greatly appreciated. I am here as a student to learn. I trust your insights. I known I tend to go far a field and take different tangents . I enjoy communicating from the boarders of my knowledge here using a humorous and sometimes confusing perspective. Lots of Fun !!!
R³
Robert R Reister
Ps
an alternate spelling for Ra is Re (Rey) a drop of golden sun ! O those Egyptians and their Sun Gods ! Freud had his go at it . Monotheism.
Mars ,
For me science is as mythic as myth. I enjoy science. It is a tool of discovery and classification created by humanity to understand the mystery of nature . It is not nature. It does not exist in nature. It is at best an attempt to draw a symbolic abstract map. But the map is not the territory. The best we can do is create metaphors and equations to explain nature. I thoroughly enjoy Richard Feynman presentation of the scientific method. Something I adhere too. I also enjoy exploring the mythopoetic aspect of humanity and being which is why I am here . Your interest is appreciated and engaging.
Robert R Reister
Hello,
There is much cognitive dissonance in our species. That is what I enjoy and where I long to dwell . Between the opposites. In the midst of multiple perspectives.
“If you can see your path laid out in front of you step by step, you know it’s not your path. Your own path you make with every step you take. That’s why it’s your path.”
― Joseph Campbell
Is seeing the path of others wrong ?
We in the west often long for the connection to the earth to the season to vegetation to animal life our ancestor had . We catch glimpses of this path in indigenous and eastern perspectives and paths. But these paths while being foreign and new to us are well known paths to our species and it’s collective consciousness.
We are a restless lot . We do enjoy the Journey to exotic landscapes mindscapes worldviews. We enjoy our collections of perspectives … we enjoy our collections of myths.
Can we learn to appreciate our own perspective and myth that we live by ?
Is our reality just as mythic as we purport other peoples to be ?
The rat race and labyrinth of modernity is fraught with scientific & mythic connotations.
I think I shall go to the Everglades , become one with the river of grass , the Sea of Reeds !!! Yet that path is known , tread by indigenous feet for millennia …
“Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind;
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be;
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of human suffering;
In the faith that looks through death,
In years that bring the philosophic mind.“Where do I find mine own Path ?
How do I sink below ?
How do I rise above ?
How do I sink below ?
How do I rise above ?
How do I sink below ?
How do I rise above ?
I shall plant myself here now and seek …
What is this Cosmos that revolves around my center my still point connected to the stillness in All ?
Our calling is to recapitulate resurrect the archaic mythic the foreign the dead , move forward and cloth them in newness of life in this our evolutionary metempsychotic episode …
R³
