Stephen Gerringer
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James,
It appears this thread is in sync with the gestalt of the times. I stumbled across this article in Vox today about the increase in people journaling to help with anxiety during the pandemic. Here’s a brief excerpt:
Journaling isn’t just a fun hobby — it’s a mechanism that’s frequently incorporated in therapy. It can be an important tool to explore inner conflicts, rant in a safe way, or figure out a difficult decision, says clinical psychologist Andrea Medaris. ‘During pandemic, I think maybe the most useful thing about journaling is that it helps create a narrative, a sense that life continues and that it is moving forward, even in a time of stuckness. It’s very easy to feel that time has paused, so making something that shows the progression from yesterday to today to tomorrow can bring a sense of hope and momentum.’ “
I believe I grasp what you are saying, Robert, and generally agree – especially when we’re playing with the theoretical and abstract in these discussions. I really enjoy diving into esoteric texts like Fritjof Capra’s The Tao of Physics and Gary Zukov’s The Dancing Wu-Li Masters (indeed, Joseph Campbell knew Capra and appreciated his work).
Nevertheless, I still wouldn’t thrust my hand into boiling water.
I recall, once having asked a young physicist what the temperature was of the room in which we were sitting; and he asked: ‘What part of the room do you mean? Here where I am? Over where you are? Up near the ceiling? Down here by the window? There’s no such thing as the temperature of this room.’ – Well, yes! But on the other hand, if that young monster of learning had been a little less metaphysically physical, he could have given a good old-fashioned answer, and I should have known whether I was shivering simply from cold or from a fever.”
Joseph Campbell, in his Preface to Myths, Dreams, and Religion (a collection of essays edited by Campbell).
Campbell certainly embraced the deep, profound metaphysical realizations and paradoxes of quantum physics (he often referred to the work of Werner Heisenberg and others); the trick is embracing the practical applications of science in the mundane world as well.
That doesn’t negate anything you bring up (I love the example you provide on how we assign a symbolic representation to the boiling point of water). We can’t talk about science without speaking in metaphors . . .
This is a fascinating topic, Robert.
This is just a quick hit-and-run post – so much more I would love to discuss – but in brief, I distinguish between the scientific method, which relates to observable fact, and the mythic metaphors scientists use to describe what the scientific method has established.
For example, we can endlessly replicate the process used to determine that water boils at 212º Fahrenheit (100º Celsius). That imports useful information that is not a metaphor (stick your hand in the boiling water, and you will experience intense pain every time – certainly doesn’t feel like a metaphor).
On the other hand, when scientists generally fall back on metaphors to convey what they have learned to the general public – whether it’s Isaac Newton’s “God as a watchmaker ” metaphor, or particle physics’ description of the wave-particle paradox. Metaphors aim at understanding, while the scientific method serves as the nuts-and-bolts approach that builds that understanding.
Robert,
You are opening up a wonderful can of worms (I mean that in the best possible way). If you don’t mind the nudge, rather than bury this post in an existing thread, perhaps you wouldn’t mind opening a brand new conversation on this topic (maybe something like The “Mythology” of Science). Frankly, if you leave out the shout-out to Mars, you might want to paste your comment above word-for-word as the opening post, along with the Feynman video.
I don’t believe we have a discussion devoted to science yet, but I can imagine people checking out COHO being drawn to the topic, whereas most might not know it’s here if they have to read the entire metaphor thread to get to this post (forgive me for thinking like an admin, which I am – the greater the variety of fascinating topics, the better for the forums as a whole).
If you wouldn’t mind, we could do that (to avoid duplication, might want to delete the comment and clip here, and just leave a message re-directing Mars to the new thread if he’s interested).
Shaheda,
Here’s a follow-up returning the focus to dreams.
The articles I found online researching zigzag petroglyphs were The snake and zig-zag motifs in Finnish rock paintings and Saami drums, by Eero Autio in the January 1991 Scripta Instituti Donneriani Aboensis 14:52-79, and
A Touch of Red : Archaeological and Ethnographic Approaches to Interpreting Finnish Rock Paintings, by Antti Lahelma, published by the Finnish Antiquarian Society in Helsinki in 2008
The following morning I looked through several books I have on rock art and petroglyphs in the American southwest. Though hundreds of images are documented in all these works, the most substantial volume, in terms of scholarship, is Landscape of the Spirits: Hohokam Rock Art at South Mountain Park, text by Todd W. Bostwick (M.A. in Anthropology, Ph.D. in History), published by the University of Arizona Press in 2002 – a study of hundreds of images etched into rocks and cliffsides in and around Phoenix, Arizona.
Whether found in Finland or the southwestern U.S., zigzags appear to relate to water, lightning, snakes and shamans (occasionally all at once) and carry tremendous power.
What’s more, both Lahelma’s A Touch of Red and Bostwick’s Landscape of the Spirits reference the same study by J.D. Lewis-Williams and Thomas A. Dowson from 1988: The Signs of All Times: Entoptic Phenomena in Upper Paleolithic Art, which appeared in Current Anthropology Volume 29(2), p. 201-45. This work finds three stages of trance experienced by individuals under altered state of consciousness (whether induced by hallucinogenic plants, drumming and dancing, etc.), apparently grounded in the neuropsychology of humans.
In the early stages of such a trance experience one encounters pure geometric shapes (referred to as “form constants” or “phosphenes”: this can include grid lines, parallel lines, dots and circles, zigzags, nested curves, filigrees, meanders, and vortices (spirals, concentric circles, circles with dots. In later stages these shapes become stylized and combine with human and animal forms.
This certainly resonates with my own experience of altered states via psychedelics: mushrooms, peyote, mescaline, morning glory seeds, datura, DMT (dimethyltryptamine), and LSD. Also, without the use of psychedelics, usually once or twice a month I will see glowing, translucent, crystalline zigzag lines of light rimming the edge of my field of vision, accompanied by an intense, pleasant, streaming sensation aka ASMR (autonomous sensory meridian response), that might last ten minutes to half an hour.
Though this is no means a Jungian work, the observations and conclusions suggest to me a biological/neurophysiological origin of archetypal imagery.
Since the scholars I looked up see an association between zigzags, snakes, and shamanic journeys into the netherworld, I’d agree with your assessment that “The symbols in this dream seem to be pointing to the underworld . . . ”
And no surprise. The creative project that I’m immersed in right now revolves around my one and only encounter with a real live ghost (pun intended), in the spring of 2005, in room 329 of the 134-year-old Delaware Hotel in Leadville, Colorado (Leadville, an old silver mining town, is at 10,152 feet elevation literally the highest incorporated community in the United States, very much part of the wild west – Doc Holliday shot his last man here).
I was not looking for, or expecting to see, a ghost, but I did. During our brief encounter she addressed me (“And you’ll be completing Pandora’s Box?”), which after years of reflection I have taken as an assignment. After much research I have learned not only who she is, who killed her, and what led up to that, but also her maiden name, where she was born, where she was raised (all the way across the country from where she was born), and a wealth of other material.
Now I’m wrestling all that together, using the myth of Pandora as a framing tale (Pandora was originally a name of the Earth Goddess, who bestows her gifts equally upon all (pan = all; dora = gift), but in the wake of the invasions of patriarchal Indo-European peoples that overwhelmed the goddess-oriented cultures of the peninsula and isles of Greece, Italy, and Asia Minor, Pandora morphs into a beautiful evil Zeus gives to mankind as punishment (long, elaborate, multi-layered story there with its original in the war between the Titans and the Olympian pantheon, but that’s the gist).
So lots to play with – and this very much involves a visit to the underworld of myth.
As for your dream, I loved the image of following the diamond road. Yes, there is danger to those ski trails, but I wonder about the mistakes you have made, as that’s in the past – the road you have already traveled. Seems the diamonds relate to what lies ahead. Perhaps more significant is that you don’t recognize that you – yes, you! –are one of the “true experts.”
A diamond – hard, translucent, bright – can be considered a “mature” crystal, a symbol of perfection (so I can see the linkage with expertise). They are also apotropaic – a talisman against poisons, diseases, evils, nightmares, wild animals, ghosts, sorcerers, and other terrors of the night. It also relates to innocence, wisdom, and spiritual truth.
I do like your associations of the diamond with the cross, which can be both shattering and an expression of wholeness at once (whether working with dreams or myths, it’s essential to be willing to embrace paradox).
I am intrigued that both our dreams contain geometric shapes – finding the bedrock beneath all the drama?
Bliss On,
Patrick has generously posted an outtake from “Finding Joe” that never made it over into the final cut – an elegant little tale from Gay Hendricks. (I had the good fortune of viewing this scene a few years ago, before the film was finished; this nugget of wisdom has made all the difference during those times when I am struggling under a heavy load).
In today’s entry on MythBlasts in the “30 Days Celebrating 30 Years of JCF,” MythBlast series editor Bradley Olson, Ph.D., provides a shout-out to Norland Tellez (I’m copying-and-pasting that here rather than providing a link, as these daily offerings disappear into the ether after 24 hours):
In conversations with JCF President, Bob Walter, and a few other colleagues at JCF, we’ve come to believe that the MythBlast series may be capable of functioning something like a digital Eranos, offering a space for thinking and speculative analyses at the edges of critical Campbell texts, as well as the important intellectual, scholarly, and cultural influences that shaped him. The MythBlast series can become a home to creative, intellectually rigorous, and novel explorations of Campbell and mythology by authors attempting to reach beyond the safe, established, often derivative, confines of traditional scholarship (Dr. Norland Tellez is a good example of a MythBlast contributor who is currently working at these edges, and you can find his MythBlasts archived at JCF).
I have to agree with Dr. Olson’s assessment. And not only do Dr. Tellez’ writings push the boundaries, but his willingness to pioneer discussions about those essays here in Conversations of a Higher Order, and the thought-provoking discussions that ensured, helped play a part in the decision to invite a variety of innovative, often nontraditional scholars to participate. As the expansion of the MythBlast series into a sort of “digital Eranos” takes shape, we are exploring how best to encourage follow-up discussions with those authors here.
Thanks to all who have participated in these conversations, and especially to Norland Tellez for going above and beyond.
JCF has posted a few excerpts on its YouTube channel of thought-provoking conversation with anthropologist Wade Davis. Here’s an example that seems relevant:
JCF has posted a few thought-provoking excerpts from a conversation with Wade Davis. Here’s an example:
“In a deeper sense, no matter what classification system we use, and no matter how fragmentary or poor our historical records, it remains the case that all human languages are related — and all human literatures too — because all human beings are related. All human beings, let us remember, are closely related; and all human languages are born, bear their fruit and die in the minds and mouths of human beings.”
Robert Bringhurst, A Story As Sharp As A Knife: The Classical Haida Mythtellers and Their World
Though this be only tangentially related to the conversation, it’s a favorite quote, from a brilliant work, that I thought worth sharing. Bringhurst has a poet’s eye, rather than a scholar’s, which enhances and amplifies his study of the role myth (and language) play in this culture indigenous to the American northwest.
Welcome to the forums, Gauri!
Theoretically, the wealth of material that comprise our daily offerings during the 30 days of JCF’s 30th anniversary celebration are accessible just for 24 hours – but visit Conversations with a Higher Order and check your profile (in the upper left hand corner of the forum page under your name) for a private message. I think I may be able to help you out.
And, at your leisure, check out some of the conversations in play here in our different forums. You should find more than a couple threads to catch your interest, and even some that might prompt you to add a few thoughts – or start a discussion on a topic of interest to you (if you’re not sure which forum to post in, The Conversation with a Thousand Faces, near the bottom of the page, is a catch-all category for what doesn’t seem to fit elsewhere). Of course you’ll notice conversations here don’t move at the pace of social media – they unspool leisurely, over time . . .
Bliss On!
Just a follow-up to this earlier post from James:
Stephen; here are two DVD suggestions; both endorsed by the Foundation that I believe will fit this bill perfectly.
One is the award winning project by Steven and Whitney Boe; called: “Mythic Journeys”; done in 2009; and the other is Patrick Soloman’s: “Finding Joe”. These films explore myth deeply and introduce many of Joseph’s ideas into the personal applications individuals can explore into bringing the realization of one’s personal myth into realization in everyday live.
Alas, the overly muscular security app we were using at the time did not allow James to post the links, so I’m re-posting then here: you can learn more about Mythic Journeys and/or purchase it here.
Click on the title to view Finding Joe for free on YouTube: removing the pay wall is writer/director Patrick Takaya Solomon’s response to the pandemic, making it available and accessible to all . You can learn more about the process of filming “Finding Joe” in this dedicated conversation with Patrick in the Mythological Resources forum here in Conversations of a Higher Order.
I think that actually mythology is image, and it’s only because the publication of pictures is so expensive that we don’t realize that in our reading.” (Joseph Campbell in radio interview with Professor Miller)
“Myth is expression, not just reading. The reader has to see the picture and say, ‘Aha!’, so the reference has got to be right there; the picture and text need to be on the same page.” (Campbell interview with Chris Goodrich in Publishers Weekly, referring to The Historical Atlas of World Mythology)
Image has always been essential to Joseph Campbell’s understanding of myth – it just took technology decades to catch up to his vision.
The original edition of The Hero with a Thousand included multiple images, but these were expensive to reproduce and appeared on plates, an image on each side, often pages away from where Campbell discusses them. (This problem is finally fixed, thanks to the efforts of David Kudler, in the 3rd edition of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, published by New World Library in 2008)
By the time we get to the four volumes of The Masks of God, published from 1959 through 1968, Campbell addresses this problem by using sketches of archaeological artifacts, rather than actual photographs. Though we lose some of the visual impact of viewing the object, this is not only far less expensive, but drawings appear on the same page as the text discussing each image.
The Mythic Image, released in 1974, is an an early attempt to meld images with myths, but, in an unpublished interview, Campbell complains to John Lobell about
. . . The Mythic Image, which is published by Princeton, and they have abandoned the book. They turned it into a smaller format paperback, black-and-white, where the pictures don’t do the communicating that they were meant to do.”
In 1976 a large coffee table book called Myths, by Alexander Elliot, is released, with significant contributions from Joseph Campbell and Mircea Eliade. This too uses a number of pictures, but there is that same problem of linking the text to the image.
Finally, the technology catches up to Joe with The Historical Atlas of World Mythology:
I don’t think there has been another scholar anywhere who has had the good fortune to have a publisher who said, ‘How many pictures do you need?’ . . . So this opportunity to have hundreds and hundreds of pictures, the ones I choose—and besides, those brand new, beautiful maps—opens a whole new prospect to exposition. I can say things here you can’t say without a visual accompaniment.”
Joseph Campbell, interviewed by Joe Nigg, in The Bloomsbury Review
I can only imagine the magic Campbell could make happen with the technology available today.
