Stephen Gerringer
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Hi Lee! Welcome to Conversations of a Higher Order (COHO)!
No evidence Joseph Campbell ever heard “Imagine” – he tended to be oblivious to popular culture (he never heard of Star Wars until he met George Lucas after the first three films – Episodes IV – VI – had all been released), though he did know of John Lennon and the Beatles, per the following exchange with Bill Moyers:
MOYERS: What did you think of the outpouring over John Lennon’s death? Was he a hero?
CAMPBELL: Oh, he definitely was a hero.
MOYERS: Explain that in the mythological sense.
CAMPBELL: In the mythological sense, he was an innovator. The Beatles brought forth an art form for which there was a readiness. Somehow, they were in perfect tune with their time. Had they turned up thirty years before, their music would have fizzled out. The public hero is sensitive to the needs of his time. The Beatles brought a new spiritual depth into popular music which started the fad, let’s call it, for meditation and Oriental music. Oriental music had been over here for years, as a curiosity, but now, after the Beatles, our young people seem to know what it’s about. We are hearing more and more of it, and it’s being used in terms of its original intention as a support for meditations. That’s what the Beatles started.”
Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth (with Bill Moyers)
As to where best to post, takes a little bit getting used to navigating these forums. This would be a better fit in our “catch all” forum near the bottom of COHO’s main page called The Conversation with a Thousand Faces (no worries though – happy to answer your question).
Feel free to poke around the various forum categories and jump into any conversations that interest you (even those that seem to be relatively quiet – COHO doesn’t move at the frenetic pace of social media), or start a topic of your own.
Not surprised you appreciate puns, Robert, considering your affection for Finnegans Wake. Indeed, every image in Finnegans Wake seems to have at least half a dozen meanings, like dream, – also no surprise, considering Joyce takes us deep into the dream of one Humphrey Chimpden Earwicker (aka HCE – or Here Comes Every Body).
I have literally recorded over a thousand dreams in a dozen dream journals over the decades; early on I realized puns are related to dream consciousness, that same playful, spontaneous, unconscious imagination whence arises symbol. Dreams are full of visual puns. In that a symbol is related to day consciousness, to what unfolds in this vale of suffering through which we pass – or in which we are embedded, depending on perspective – the dream image helps us rise above the mundane, twist our brain out of a literal perspective of the world, and lift us above a sensate reality fueled by fear and desire.
Freud points to not just the proverbial Freudian-slip of the tongue as providing a glimpse into the uncensored unconscious, but also humor – and puns
. . . and indeed, the pun and its cluster of associations reminds us that language itself is primarily metaphor.
I love the pun for its patterns which step outside and break past (transcend) directed thought, rigid definitions and linear sentences, evoking instead a rhythm of associations good and bad and everything in between.
I haven’t found a preview button an option in the forum platform we are using, though I will look into that. I spend a lot of time editing my replies before AND after I post. In the old forums, I often found it easier to compose my posts in a Word doc, then cut-and-paste to the forum and add formatting. (I tended to write incredibly lengthy messages, and often lost everything I was writing when I’d “time out”).
The other change is the CAPTCHA we added (unfortunately made necessary when a sleeper bot that joined months before starting spamming threads with porn links . . . )
Hi Drewie – I figured I’d reply here, to the post you deleted, to give you a heads up on changes in the structure of threads (as opposed to a reply your more substantial response).
Previously, when a user would “Reply” directly to a comment, the individual they are replying to would be notified (assuming they selected “Notify me of follow-up replies via email box”), but the reply itself would appear at the very end of all messages in the thread, which was no different than what happens when someone posts a new comment that isn’t a direct reply.
However, there are only so many posts per page (25, I believe), and once we’d hit that, further comments would appear on a new page in the thread. Some of our discussions in the MythBlast forum stretched on for three, four, or five pages, and many couldn’t find posts they wanted to reply to, not knowing they were looking at the bottom of page 3 and the earlier comment they were looking for was on page 1 – and folks new to a thread weren’t clear just what post out of dozens of comments a reply was referencing.
So we switched to nested threads. When you click “Reply” on someone’s post, your response will appear immediately after and slightly inset from the original post; the the same happens when the person you are replying to or anyone else responds directly to your reply. The advantage to this that one can follow a complete exchange at once, rather than reading a comment and then finding a reply to that comment some ten or twelve posts later in the thread.
If posting a general comment where you don’t click a “Reply” button, that remark will appear at the end of scroll. (If referencing comments from more than one individual in your post, I’d suggest including the index number of the each post in the body of your text so readers can find the earlier comments).
It’s still not perfect – not everyone, whether now or the earlier format, clicks the Reply button on a post they are responding to, and not everyone enables email notifications in their post, but it seems a step in the right direction.
Thank you, sunbug, for posting these clips.
In the thread with Nancy Allison discussing Jean Erman’s dance art in our Campbell in Culture forum, I posted the announcement of a talk by Nancy Allison, hosted by the National Arts Club (which honored Joseph Campbell with their Gold Medal for Literature in his 80th year) on March 29, entitled Location and Sensation, which included four brief films by Nancy (one of which was a staging of “Hamadryad,” a Jean Erdman dance she taught to Nancy, in a nature setting).
I attended the online event, which enhanced my appreciation of how adding film to dance creates a novel art form (which reminded me of how Jean’s innovation of adding the spoken word to dance brought to life something new). Fortunately, the NAC later posted the talk (which includes the films) to YouTube. I shared the link in the Jean Erdman thread, but thought you might not have reason to visit that conversation of late, so wanted to post it here as well, for your viewing pleasure.
Enjoy!
Happy Day, Drewie,
Back in the middle of January you wrote
… as far as where Campbell is coming from you got me covered Stephen but there are more questions on the subject (would be weird if they weren’t) but I will leave it at that now and come back later and see if I can think of anything else.
I’m curious if anything else has come to mind? As you note, the sheer volume of Campbell’s work can make it difficult to connect the dots. In some instances, his material becomes a Rorschach inkblot of sorts – many people see different things, depending on what they have been exposed to, which can lead to confusion and misunderstanding (such as critics who think “follow your bliss” is a license for hedonism, or New Age adherents who take is as a form of wishcraft). Hence a thread entitled “Understanding Campbell” remains a great idea.
I am curious – how did your first encounter Joe’s work?
Thank You, Dennis,
for that wonderful response. I don’t want to hog the conversation, but you do bring up some of my favorites (James Hillman, and the poet Wallace Stevens), though T.M. Luhrmann’s book has been off my radar until now.
Frankly, though, I did want to take a moment to note that the link to your website in the bio paragraph at the end of your essay is incorrect (though that is in the process of being fixed). So, for those who missed it, here is the correct URL for your site: https://www.dennispatrickslattery.com
This is especially important for our fellow Campbellophiles, who should check out your upcoming events at this link. Those who scroll down the page will see that May 12 – 15 of next year (2022) you will be leading a workshop in Santa Fe, New Mexico, entitled “Questing for Our Personal Myth: Writing, Remembering, and Renewing Our Story Through the Teachings of Joseph Campbell.”
I notice that event was originally scheduled for last week. Though I’m sorry that didn’t happen, it’s good news for the many who responded in our COHO discussion of your previous MythBlast essay, especially given there’s more than a year to plan and prep for a trip (and, in fact, I’d recommend any who have not been to Santa Fe take a few extra days on one end or the other to explore the area – such a magical setting).
I hope forum participants will forgive me for inserting what may appear to be a blatant promotion into the discussion, but I know this subject is of interest to many, and seemed the least I could do after we posted the wrong link.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
😄Whitney,
Carolyn Myss is right on with her distinction between “thinking about” and actual experience of the transcendent – and I love your personal example (a mystical experience in a fabric store!).
But what really speaks to my experience is your observation that
his teachings feel familiar in a way that is not simply a recollection but rather what has been there all along. Truths that live readily available if only they could be spoken aloud. And Mr. Campbell seems to do just that.”
When I first read Joseph Campbell, and even more when I viewed the Power of Myth, it was an “aha!” moment for me – not because he was speaking “new truth” or was telling us “This is the way – walk ye therefore in it,” but because he was articulating things I had felt and known for a few years, but had never quite been able to put into words until Joe came along.
I believe he helped so many of us find our own voice – which seems clear from your comment (you are not “out of your league” at all).
Thanks for adding your voice to the discussion (and please feel free to jump into any other threads in these forums that draw your interest, even those that may seem to have faded out – all it take is one new comment or observation to breathe new life into a conversation)
Namaste
Craig,
You mention returning to The Power of Myth interviews “perhaps because it is an interview, and therefore, spoken-word, on-the-spot, and sincere in its spontaneity and simplicity.”
Indeed, over the years I have found myself dividing Campbell’s work into two broad categories, which in my mind I call “written Campbell” and “spoken Campbell.”
I love “written Campbell” – e.g. The Hero with a Thousand Faces, The Masks of God, etc – well written, densely packed sentences and paragraphs, with exhaustive footnotes.
But what most strikes a chord with the public seems “spoken Campbell” – whether the Power of Myth and other interviews (e.g. An Open Life: Joseph Campbell in Conversation with Michael Toms) and discussions (The Hero’s Journey; A Joseph Campbell Companion, etc.), as well as books edited from lectures (Myths To Live By, Pathways to Bliss, etc.).
Campbell’s writing is beautiful (he read every word aloud to Jean, which helps when I come across a complex passage that I don’t get at first: I’ll read it aloud, paying attention to the rhythm provided by the punctuation), but there is a spontaneity and charm to Joe just talking. I believe “spoken Campbell” is much more accessible than his more scholarly work, though both draw from the same well.
movingalways
I don’t believe Campbell would take issue with your assessment, given this statement of his:
I’m not a mystic, in that I don’t practice any austerities, and I’ve never had a mystical experience. So I’m not a mystic. I’m a scholar, and that’s all.
I remember when Alan Watts one time asked me, ‘Joe, what yoga do you practice?’ I said, ‘I underline sentences.’ And that’s all I’m doing. My discipline is taking heavy notes and correlating everything I read with everything else I’ve read. I have nine drawers full of notes, and I have four more packed down in the cellar that I can’t get another piece of paper in. For 40 years I’ve taken notes on these materials that seemed to me to be opening the picture to my mind.”
(from an interview with Jeffrey Mishlove)
We would like to extend our thanks to Evans Lansing Smith, Ph.D. for spending time with us in Conversations of Higher Order.
Dr. Smith, thank you for giving so generously of your time – far more than the single week we expected! Though, of course you may feel free to stick around and participate as much or as little as you would like, we do understand you have other commitments you must attend to; however, don’t be surprised if the conversation continues on without you as participants continue to explore these subjects.
We look forward to doing more of the same with your next MythBlast essay.
We would like to extend our thanks to Craig Deininger, Ph.D. for spending the week with us in Conversations of Higher Order.
Craig, thank you for giving so generously of your time, and the thoughts you have shared. Though of course we understand you do have other commitments you must attend to, don’t be surprised if the conversation continues on without you (which is part of the fun – indeed, I’m likely to add a comment or two myself).
We look forward to doing more of the same with your next essay, should you be willing.
Thank you, Marianne,
I like the way Lans answers my questions, which circles back to Joseph Campbell’s own rejection of the way of renunciation (leaving life behind and withdrawing from the mundane world in favor of navel-gazing –where the Siren’s song takes us when we hear it and pursue it exclusively).
. . . as opposed to Joe’s approach – drawing on Krishna’s revelation to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita, Nietzsche’s amor fati, and the “bodhisattva formula” within Mahayana Buddhism – of “saying yea to life!” – and joyfully participating in this world of sorrows.
Seems the myth advises us one way to successfully navigate that passage is to lash oneself to the mast – the World Axis, or Still Point round which all revolves … which strikes me as a subtle thread tying together all these wonderful MythBlast essays from so many different authors.
Exactly, Craig!
Can’t help but love Campbell’s words to Moyers – experience trumps “meaning.” Sometimes I describe Joseph Campbell’s perspective as experiential mythology. “Meaning” is head knowledge, which appeals to academics – and that may explain not only why the academy is sometimes leery of Campbell, but also why he is able to reach such a wide, popular audience. Campbell doesn’t just talk to our intellect, but reaches us where we live, in the world of experience.
Rafael – numinosity is a term so closely associated with Jung’s understanding of archetypes that it’s quickly dismissed by academics and others who reject Jungian theory, which is why I appreciate your pivot to Joyce’s discussion of art. Even those who look askance at Jung have had an experience of being affected by a work of art – gets the idea across without the baggage.
