April 14, 2021 at 9:37 am #72871
Stephen and James,
Indeed I think you explained it better. The problem is accepting the immoral part that you are projecting outwards as part of yourself and that takes moral effort for the ego since it always thinks its in the right/good/moral side of things. I think sometimes what would happen if all the people in the world realized that “Evil” doesn’t reside outside of ourselves and that all this conflict that exists in the world is actually an internal conflict that exists within ourselves. It seems to me that as a species we are in an ever ending vicious cycle of pointing fingers but “what if” everyone realized that, we can dream cant we? lol
Ofcourse its much more complicated when you insert survival and what is in our best interest which I am guessing this is one of the reasons most conflicts originate. I have a bit of problems with some neighbors and the noise they make. heh. etc. And that’s on a local level in the world of politics and the collective arena it can get nasty pretty fast.
As far as dreams go, Stephen you must have some really vivid dreams if you want your wife to wake you up. For me I rarely have dreams anymore, at least I don’t remember having them. I am not sure what is the deal with that. But when I have a dream its always some big realization about myself that comes immediately after I wake up like an instinctual understanding of the metaphor that the dream was trying to convey. So that’s that.
James I will re-read your follow up reply later. I wanna make sure I understand where you are saying and find the right answer because like I mentioned to you I don’t wanna put the conversation off track too much since I tend to get lost in different concepts and ideas with my answers. So bare with me.
Adios.April 14, 2021 at 1:18 pm #72870
I’ll address your first part of your post because it really got my attention and adds an extra dimension to this conversation. If I am understanding you correctly you are saying that when dealing with the shadow aspects of our personality we also have to be careful about thinking eliminating the “shadow” completely as this would make us too much acquiescent. That is true and integration of the shadow doesn’t mean being agreeable for the sake of being civilized. We still have to act for what we think is right for ourselves even though we might hurt other people in the process. Ofcourse mythology offers many examples on this relationship of the father/son or mother/daughter going into some major conflict.
The other aspect is the one you talk about and point out in the quotes you provided (books that have certainly went into my reading list) in that when we suppress our shadow too much for conformity with society we lose very crucial parts of our personality like being spontaneous, creative and basically like you mentioned in your post when we lose those we become spiritless. It takes a lot of tweaking and fine balancing these elements to become true individuals. As far as I can tell using and integrating your “shadow” for your own purposes means you maintain your posture in the position you hold in life or philosophy or the road you wanna travel and at the same time it also means being respectful of other people’s way or philosophy but how this is done without hurting the other is a mystery to me. For example take the philosophical religious/scientific conflict it exists in the world today. A conflict which I am very fond and take extra pleasure in engaging with both sides. For sure both sides go to extremes to have their point made valid. Both are wrong and right at the same time which is weird but on the one hand you cant reject the mysterious part of life completely like it happens in some scientific groups and on the other you cant accept it in the way that was understood fifteen hundred years ago like it happens in religious groups. Campbell stretched and explained this in the best possible way the Western mind can understand it and we still haven’t resolved it. Funny. Seems to me one is the shadow of the other.
That is all I am gonna say for now because it is too much to absorb at the moment but I am very interested in this relationship of the positive and negative elements of the shadow and how the process of integration or balancing happens but its really good that you brought this extra dimension in the conversation because I often get caught in this trap thinking that in order to become a better person also means eliminating the shadow completely . And with that said I hope I didn’t take the conversation too much off track. Anyways.
Cheers.April 14, 2021 at 7:10 pm #72869Stephen GerringerKeymaster
Vivid dreams indeed, Drewie! Over the last quarter-century-plus I’ve recorded more than 1,000 in a dozen volumes of my Dream Journal. Took effort and energy to train myself to do that (dreams are fleeting, composed of quicksilver and gossamer threads), but definitely worth it. Over time recurring patterns become apparent, as do unexpected epiphanies , especially in terms of precognitive dreams (I don’t have unexplained deja vu experiences anymore; when that sense that “this seems to have happened before” steals over me, I am often able to track the setting, circumstances, and dynamics back to a specific dream event).
The thread James mentions on dreamwork resources is called Helpful Books on Dreams. Feel free to add any titles and descriptions of works you find useful on this subject.April 14, 2021 at 9:10 pm #72868jamesn.Participant
Stephen; I’ve been wondering about something that has come up recently in another thread discussion and has crossed my radar several times concerning a Jungian concept called “synchronicity” which seems to me has relevance to one’s idea of their “Bliss Path” because it has to do with as Joseph put it: “the push out of your own existence”. And since dreams are so closely connected to the psyche’s expression of itself then I would think that anything that has to with this synchronistic idea of: “meaningful coincidence” there might be some sort of inner connection of dream interplay that also serves this inner dynamic. In other words the choices and engagements one makes in their life are not only symbolically represented in our dreams so it is that synchronistic symbols and images are also expressed within this dream inner-world we experience every night where this path we are following presents to us; or put another way our dream ego; that which we are constantly working through while seeking what’s meaningful in our lives that our psyche is attempting to either attain or resolve.
(I hope this is making sense) because if synchronicity represents meaningful chance or coincidences then I would think this includes; as Bill Moyers put it; being helped by “hidden hands” as we follow this internal bliss instinct that’s driving us. So in fine since we are always “a work in progress”; so to speak; whether awake or asleep; we are constantly having these moments or flashes of insights we are on this path we are following and our dreams are letting us know through this internal dialogue what the psyche’s response to this is. (Like I said I hope what I’m asking is coherent enough to make sense in what you have found within your own experience; or something close to it.)
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